Those who want learning to be a part of their everyday lives should keep reading!
In this episode, Hanne is joined by Jason Liem, brain and mindset scientist, and Laura Dejuan, Creator of Brainbox at Deutsche Telekom. Together, they explore learning and re-skilling from a mindset and neuroscience angle. Embrace frustration, re-frame along with re-skill, and enable leaders to ask brain-activating questions in 1:1s with employees. Throughout the conversation, there is motivation, juicy information, science, and fun. Those who want learning to be a part of their everyday lives should keep reading!
So, what did they discuss?
Hanne Lindbæk
Hello, everyone, and heartily welcome back to the human centric podcast. I am Hanne, and I’m alone in the studio here in Oslo. Today, I am joined by a Canadian on board. And our second guest today is actually dialing in from somewhere close to San Sebastián; so very, very exotic. So, here we are today discussing, as you can understand, from the title of the episode, this kind of incredibly central point to everything we’re doing these days. How can we learn to work, learn and work independently on our own development. Corporate world topics like upskilling and re-skilling are hot topics of the moment, and for good reason. Everything is developing so rapidly. We need to find the best ways to teach people stuff and learn how to learn as individuals. This is the topic of this podcast episode. Our lives should be about more than just going to work every day and doing what we did yesterday, which we all know isn’t going to cut it these days. So Laura, and Jason, please just come to the mic and say hi, both of you. Hello, everyone.
Jason Liem, Laura Dejuan
Hello there!
Hanne Lindbæk
So delighted to have you both on board. So we have one internal resource today. Right?
Jason Liem, Laura Dejuan
Yeah. Perfect.
Hanne Lindbæk
So, Laura, where are you talking us from?
Laura Dejuan
From a small city in the Basque Country, North of Spain. So um, yeah. Close to San Sebastián, as you said already? Well, I work remotely from home, home-office, for 7–8 years now so, when the pandemic came, not much changed. Except the fact that I had my kids around this time!
Hanne Lindbæk
So Laura, firstly, congratulations on this incredibly successful project, the brain box. We’re going to tell the listeners in a second what it’s all about. But of course, they already know by now we’re talking about learning at work. I was so curious when I heard your story. So what happened three years ago, your boss came to you?
Laura Dejuan
Yeah, well, three years ago, I joined this project. And in this you learn is a subproject that aims to transform Deutsche Telekom into a learning organization. And within this team, we are 10 people working, and I’m the one that is focused on the learning culture learning mindset. And there was a time when my former manager, she told me “Hey, why don’t you do research about this neuroscience topic and neuro the tactics, so maybe it can give us a clue or a path?” So how we can use this knowledge about how the brain works and how the brain learns. So to make our learning life easier, also in the corporate environment?
Hanne Lindbæk
Am I right? You didn’t know anything or very much about this field from before that, you know,
Laura Dejuan
No clue what she was talking about. But it sounds good. It sounds interesting. So why not? And then I started doing my own research and learning. And I really found it a super topic. I really started loving it from the very beginning. And then I did our very first session with my team. And they were so fascinated, and they were so because it’s a very new topic for all of us, I think, because we are working in an IT company. So things like the brain and the learning environment and how the brain works is something that we are not used to talk about at work. I mean, they told me Hey, and why don’t you offer these sessions in our internal learning platform that we have, and maybe more people can join, and they can also take advantage of this knowledge, and you can help them to learn easier. And yeah, okay, then I gave my first session in these internal learning At first, and then yeah, I saw that there was a lot of interest in people. And then the first session became a second one, and then a third one, and people were asking for more. And then I created a series of five sessions, and I’m offering them every Thursday, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the afternoon because of the time shift. So people from also America or Singapore can join. Amazing. Yeah, so that was how it started. But Brain Box now is not only about this learning sessions, I also created the brain box, the initiative itself. And together with the sessions, there is now a space in our intranet. And I upload there, all the content and all the material from the sessions, but also some videos, articles, tips, and tricks about learning techniques. Great some biography. And so people can explore deeper if they want.
Hanne Lindbæk
So right here, we have like a brilliant little advertisement, guys, for those of you listening in who are actually within the Deutsche Telekom universe, here’s an invitation if you didn’t already go there. There’s a learning site, there’s an initiative. My favorite thing about your story, Laura, is that this leader just couldn’t go in, so why don’t you look at it and you find your passion there, and then you develop something that becomes so popular and somehow also, which we are going to look at, changes the dynamic of how we approach people in the workplace, when we’re trying to get them to learn and join programs. There’s just such a fabulous story to me. Let’s do say hello to Jason, thank you so much for taking the time today.
Jason Liem
Well, thanks for the invitation. Appreciate it. So if you take us through just to kind of like what we always say here, we don’t need your CV, we just want your passion, we want to know what led you to where you are today. I know that’s very hard and a few sentences. But tell us Jason, what’s your story?
Jason Liem
My backgrounds are within clinical psychology in the cognitive sciences. So I am originally from Canada, but I did my grad studies in Chicago. And about 25 years ago, you know, when I first started out, that’s what I was working with specifically was trauma and helping people to cognitively and emotionally deal with trauma. But then, you know, as you know, part of my story, I met my wife who is Norwegian, she had that Scandinavian glow, she traced me over here to Norway. So that’s where I’m actually talking from right now, in Oslo, Norway. But then I decided I wanted to set up my own shop. And so I set up mind talk. And it was based on, you know, the talk in our minds. And that’s what I worked with. And so for the last 20 years, I’ve been running mind talk, where I’ve been teaching people about sort of cognitive psychology, that clinical communication tools, and you know, based in neuroscience, and it’s constantly taking that, like I work more as a coach and sparring partner. But the idea is to help people to better lead and communicate by understanding, you know, the cutting edge of what brain science is. So it’s very science based, it’s very pragmatic. It’s a very rewarding job in order to help people to kind of move forward through whatever challenges it is if it’s operations or strategy or communication, or their own internal self-management when it comes to stress or prioritizing or anxiety or what have you. So in a nutshell, so the last 25 years that I’ve been doing is teaching people pretty much communication based skills that are that have their underpinnings in neuroscience and clinical psychology.
Hanne Lindbæk
How utterly amazing and, God, how I wish we had a whole episode, we might just have to do that, where we discuss your journey that’s not a laughing matter, actually from like clinical trauma stories to the corporate world. And the challenge has to do with neuroscience and developing ourselves and communicating at work. And so of course, again, for the listeners who come from within the Deutsche Telekom, you’re a little bit of a celebrity Jason, because apparently, you’ve made some films that are for internal use that are little kind of snippets that deal with the topics we need to know about in order to understand ourselves and others in the workplace. And they’re being watched quite a lot, I think. So for those of you already familiar with Jason, here’s a chance to kind of get even further into his logic today, which I’m so looking forward to. We’re going to switch then and talk a little bit about learning in the workplace and why it is so important right now. Like why now, Laura, what did you learn from developing brain box? What is your most significant finding? What can you tell us about learning today?
Laura Dejuan
Well, I think, when you follow your passion, the path is not is easy and beautiful. It has a lot of ups and downs and certainty. And I learned to keep my curiosity alive, being resilient and persistent. But looking into them, maybe the corporate learning environment. I think that nowadays, learning is so influential because companies, I think they want to be able to guarantee jobs anymore. But they can warranty a skill development. And that means that living in a world that we are in, the company that does not learn does not grow. So this was really key for us.
Hanne Lindbæk
So you’re saying it’s absolutely crucial to survival?
Laura Dejuan
Yeah, because jobs in two, three years time, they have not been created already. So we have to be there with the right skills in the right moment. And that means that we really need to be fast learning, it has to be something easy, it has to be something that people are really willing to learn new things and jumping into new roles.
Hanne Lindbæk
So that’s a good answer right there. And it’s a pretty profound answer. Jason, is this your insight, too? Would you agree with what Laura was saying here? Yeah.
Jason Liem
I mean, you know, I have three teenage kids. And you know, they’ll be in the job market within, you know, 5, 6,7, or 8 years. And you know, a lot of what exists today may not exist in that time. And so I think Laura’s very articulate when she says that, you know, 36 or 48 months from now, there are jobs that are not existing today that will exist at some point. And we can see the evolution of these jobs. And I think, you know, when we talk about re skilling, I think re skilling is a very important skill to obtain. But I think to complement that, I think we also need to reframe, because I think many of us get locked into a way of what we know. And we hold on to that. But moving into the future, is what Laura’s already said. And what Brain Box seems to be about is embracing that uncertainty, and so reskilling without reframing, and reframing and meaning how you picked your learning. And as I think Laura was saying that curiosity, that passionate course is on a clear roll from A to Z. But it can get messy. There are a lot of mistakes, but it’s embracing that struggle and bracing that frustration in order to move forward. It’s easier to say than done. But you know, it does take a lot of work, I think, but I think it’s more of an investment than a cost.
Hanne Lindbæk
This weirdly fits into a previous episode that we’ve had on the podcast, it seems to be like these recurring topics are kind of, they keep just entering the episodes without us really planning for them. But here we are, again, discussing passion, and how passion leads us to where we need to go in order to actually survive in the workplace. And then secondly, the idea that we need to not only kind of get on board with the rescaling and upskilling and rescaling, but we need to reframe the very way we think about our own roles in the companies. So when the discussions has been going on in previous episodes, it’s been discussing now, how would you really define what it is to be an expert? And becoming an expert or calling yourself an expert sounds a bit like a dead end these days, because everything’s changing so fast. And we need to get on board in the new stuff so quickly, that the moment you sit down and you kind of go, I’ve got expertise now. You are actually stopping to learn. So, so many fascinating thoughts in here. So we determined we do agree. Gosh, it’s an important topic, Laura, if I tried to kind of lock us into giving advice for any leader out there in Deutsche Telekom right now seeking to grow their people having this knowledge onboard, what would be your number one advice? How do we go about it?
Laura Dejuan
I would say give your team a space to learn. And when I say that is not just attending trainings, it’s more about creating the proper environment within your team. So they can learn from each other and allow them to make mistakes. So learn from them. I think this will help create a mindset of discovery and curiosity.
Hanne Lindbæk
So you’re saying some very important things you’re saying there to trip up there to fail and create a culture where we are allowed to fail and discuss our failings even. And also you saying create a space, I think, you know, as a trained kind of Communication Coach and Trainer myself, it’s one of the biggest enemies and obstacles I’m up against. Definitely in my work. It’s just basically time. People are too stressed out with being stressed out and they’re not taking the time for the bigger picture or for like actually absorbing new stuff.
Laura Dejuan
Yeah, you’re right. I think this is the big Yes, talent, so how to adapt the corporate learning to the new modern learner? So all these obstacles that people have nowadays, right? So they are overwhelmed and as you were saying have less time, are more impatient have high expectations. And at the same time, as we are seen, it is more important than ever to learn.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah, it brings back this old saying, doesn’t it? We were so busy being busy that suddenly we weren’t busy anymore. Yeah, right. So being the right kind of busy, that’s what it’s going to be all about. Great. Okay, well, so we have established beyond any doubt, that learning is crucial. It’s key to our development in our individual lives. And it’s key for corporations to actually both be competitive, but also to know how to thrive. It’s not only about greed and resources is it it’s about actually also thriving and being creative, and fitting a purpose in societies where the corporation’s exists. Let’s then turn the page and trying to kind of weave it all together, I want to turn the corner and I want to understand more Jason, about this thing that lies at the top of our spine, and we call it the brain. Take us there take us to the brain try and kind of, for us people who don’t have your education and insight to help us understand what’s the latest on the brain? Because it’s also evolved, doesn’t it? You told us that when we were prepping for today, you did these films for Deutsche Telekom. This is coming up two years ago. And now you’re telling us they are actually already old fashioned? What’s going on?
Jason Liem
Well, let me qualify that. So yeah, they were two years ago. And a lot of it is still relevant. I mean, it hasn’t changed. But there has been developments that allow us to go in more depth and to refine the skill sets. And you know, from a leader perspective, or coach perspective. So you know, just to spend a little more time, you know, Daniel Kahneman in 2012, he came out with his great book Thinking Fast and Slow. And where he talks about system one, system two. And so what we know there’s a number of systems in the brain, but we can almost add systems three and four. Now, what do I mean? Well, I know this is an audio format. But if I could ask the listeners or yourselves, you know, you have the two hands in front of you. And if you fold your thumbs across your palms, and then you wrap your fingers over the thumbs, you’ll create two fists. Now, if you put these two fists together, they represent the hemisphere of the brain, the left and the right hemispheres. Now, let’s take the left hand, the fingers represent the cortex are very over simplistic sort of the thinking tissues of the brain. Now, if I peel back those fingers, you’ll see my thumb is there. Well, the thumb itself represents an anatomical structure called the limbic system. Now, the limbic system is just the emotional center of the brain, it’s a very simple term to talk about a collection of different parts, such as the amygdala hippocampus. Now, this is very important when it comes to learning. You know, we have two emotional centers, meaning we have to make the lie. So I can open my right hand, which represents the right hemisphere, and there’s a different emotional center there. Now there’s a complete difference between the left and the right, they both have logical sensors and emotional sensors. But this is key to learning. The left side how the neurons or the brain cells are structured, they run in series, they are linear, so they’re connected, sort of like serial processing. Meaning what do I mean? Well, if I have idea A, that leads to IDB, which leads to ideas, see it’s linear, it’s sequential. And so on the left hand side, if we look at the anatomical structure of those fingers, on top of the thumb, the logical centers, the cortex, what is that responsible for? Well, responsible for critical thinking and judgment, it’s very black and white. It’s detailed, it’s concise and precise. It looks at its language, and it’s verbal. It’s also what we call temporal, meaning it’s sequential. So temporal, in this case, means Past, Present Future. Now, that’s important when we’re learning to use critical thinking to understand the details. But if we move to the emotional center of the left side, this emotional center is about defensiveness, it’s about survival. And we have what’s called the F three response, which is flight, freeze and fight. Now, this part of the brain, you know, this is something we didn’t cover in the video, but this part of the brain doesn’t like anything new. And so this is very important when it comes to learning because this left side of the brain, the emotional center, it wants to keep what it controls. It wants to stay in certainty and what is certainty, while most videos we did with Deutsche Telekom certainties about what we’ve already learned what we’ve already achieved Exactly, but learning, you know this Han and Laura Gnosis to no time we’re faced with something we need to learn, or some change comes to us, we feel a sense of frustration and struggle. Now, I think this is very important because this is what bridges the left side of the brain, the right side of the brain. Now, the fight, flight and freeze the f3 response, usually, when we feel struggle or frustration with a new or with some sort of change, struggle is actually a road sign that we’re moving in the right direction. But a lot of us when we’re faced with struggle, flight, we run away or we freeze, we choke up. But the most important ft response and this is why the left side of the brain, the emotional side is so important because the fight means you’re embracing the struggle. You’re trying to crack the code and what is happening there. When the brain ceases, what it happens, it invests, you know, the brain doesn’t care if things are running smoothly, it won’t dedicate any resources. But that struggle that frustration shows up as an error signal in the brain. And what does it do? Well, it dedicates neuromodulators now neuromodulators, this type of chemicals, the first one is released is something called neuro adrenaline. I hopefully I’m not geeking out, but I think this is very good when it comes to learning. Okay, so neuro adrenaline, this neuromodulator. What it does, it triggers the CNS, the central nervous system means it activates us, right. And we know what it feels when we feeling a sense of pressure or anxiety, right? When we’re struggling, it activates us. And then what happens it releases a second neuromodulator called acetylcholine, acetylcholine is very simply, it’s like a spotlight, it puts a tension on those neurons were struggling. Now, as we try to crack the code, as we try to learn as we embrace the suck, as the American Marines, or not the Marines but their seals, that’s their slogan, I think it’s perfect. Embrace the suck, embrace the struggle, because the struggle of frustration, in Ohana is the signpost that we’re learning. And once we cracked a little bit of the code, what happens? Well releases a third neuromodulator called dopamine and dopamine, it’s just like that it’s dope, it makes us feel good. Now, this is the critical point, when we embrace the struggle. It links the left emotional center to the right emotional center and the right hemisphere. Now the right hemisphere is wired differently. It’s wired like a parallel processor. It works in as Laura saying, to find the passion, that curiosity? Well, those are just emotional words, those are key because those are what defines and dictates the right emotional center. Now the right emotional center, it’s its own anatomical structure. What does it focus on? It focuses on taking risks, uncertainty, learning, growing, developing adventure, opportunities and possibilities. But you know, we can go to passionate, and that’s why the logical sensors are very important. And so, I mean, this is a whole workshop, and I’m trying to cram this in 10 minutes. But the learning in itself is just that. Basically, what we want to do is embrace the struggle, it seems counterintuitive, but when we embrace the struggle, whether we’re running, and we’re trying to push faster, we’re lifting weights to become stronger, learn a new language and we’re struggling, that’s what we want to do, we want to embrace the suck, we want to embrace the frustration because of these neuromodulators, because the brain will dedicate more resources to that. And so this is about building habits. So when you have two neurons that are starting to fire together for the first time, you know, the electrical signal will be weak. But habits aren’t formed over a length of time, they’re formed of how often you fire those neurons, you know, law, one of the heads laws, when it fires together wires these neurons. So every time we practice something, every time we push towards something, this fatty tissue called myelin. Myelin is what coats the neural connections. Think of it like copper wire, the thicker I put the insulation around the copper wire, the faster and the stronger that electrical signal will pass. Okay, brains, the same thing. So when we embrace the struggle, Hanne. Yes, that’s just what it is. We create this fatty myelin sheath that coats the electrical signal. That’s when we become more adept, more skilled.
Hanne Lindbæk
So let me try let me see if I understood any of this correctly. Jason, thank you so so much. Oh god, I Lego is, well, I wish we had a whole season for this. But I actually think there was a lot of really, really juicy learning in there. But your bottom line, which is beautiful, too, is embracing the feeling the frustration of feeling stuck or feeling the struggle. So you’re actually saying, If I imagine I was overwhelmed by a new learning task, and I really didn’t get it, then maybe I would go to like flight or freeze. But there’s a certain kind of saturation point where I can stay with this struggle. And then you’re saying our hormones are actually our friends here. Also the like, I’m using my inverted comma fingers now that the kind of bad experience of hormones like noradrenaline and cortisol would kind of speed me up towards the dopamine kick, if I just stick with the struggle. Is that what you’re saying?
Jason Liem
Yeah, so there are chemicals are not hormones, but just just for a pedantic sake, you know, it’s okay. But it’s been just called neuromodulators. They modulate how we think and they focus time. So I think just to connect it to something Laura said, you know, it’s, you know, the frustration or the stress that a lot of people are feeling. Sometimes I think it’s very important because it’s hard to talk to colleagues who are in the same culture or to talk to sort of internal coaches or friends and family. Sometimes it’s good to find a sparring partner outside of that, because sometimes we can’t use the mind to get out of the mind. You know, sometimes when we’re stressed or pressure frustrated, sometimes it’s very hard for us to be able to get ourselves out, or someone’s stuck in the same culture as us. Again, they, he or she, they also have a like mindedness, and that has its strength, and it has its disadvantages. And friends and family. Sometimes it’s hard to bring home work and frustration is because they have their own work and frustrations. What I’m saying here, I think it’s very important is that they have someone to they can articulate their thinking and their emotions. Why? Because the most important is when we can articulate or describe our thoughts and our emotions, and we can see them for what they are. They allow us to get more objective. So we can still feel the frustration. But back to your point on, we can shift to the fight, we can shift to a more constructive mind talk in order to deal with in thinking, You know what, again, it’s the rescaling coupled with the reframing. But yeah, you know, when you couple reframing with the reskilling reframing, I think is just another way of telling you the self, your story to you know what I got to embrace the struggle?
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes. I think that we could talk about embracing the struggle in so many ways. I mean, we could talk about, like how we digest food even couldn’t we like how we need roughage, or we need you know, there’s so many places we could take that even within biology. But Laura, I wanted to know, because you give me this very recognizable story of starting to explore neuroscience, and then getting super fascinated by it, I so totally share that passion and interest. I was curious to ask you with your new insight, as you grew to learn about the brain and how it works and how your brain works. Did it change your day to day? Did it change your everyday life?
Laura Dejuan
Yeah, of course, and not only mine, but also my kids study routines. And I hope that also the participants that have attended the BrainBox sessions, but in my case, what I can say is that one of the changes I made is the way I learned new things. So knowing the brain learns by connecting No, let’s now I think I treat the new formation or the new knowledge differently. Or at least I’m more conscious about my learning actions. And on the other valuable thing, and I think also very linked to what JSON is saying about this struggle, is that also the when you are in this point in this struggle, it also helps you open to different ideas, I realized I learned that the real opportunity to learn is not when Judas agree to the ideas of others. But when you listen to different ideas than yours, because in that moment, when you are struggling, like hey, but this idea doesn’t fit at all, with my beliefs with my thoughts. So what is this person telling and and just start struggling and and they are really to try to understand what is this all about? And this is when you realize and you listen to all their points of view, or the ways of doing things? Maybe that helps, I think, create your own criteria, and it helps you learn and it helps you grow. So for me, I think that was what I also learned about the brain.
Hanne Lindbæk
That’s a major learning right there and I’m sure it’s coming To the benefit of a lot of people right now in the telecom. So we’ve got to really thank this leader who three years ago set you on this path, I was aware of you said something when we were prepping, about how to attract people to learning. So now we get that, once you’re in learning, you need to stay with a stuck, you need to work on how you deal with frustration and stuckness. But how do you even get me in the door? Laura, what is your philosophy on that?
Laura Dejuan
I think learning is not easy. I think learning is a very complex process. And at the beginning is not always easy, because new knowledge, maybe you don’t have that many previous knowledge to link it to the new information. But it’s really fascinating, because if you are learning something that you really like, it doesn’t matter if you are more resilient, it is more motivating, or at least I think more you are more motivated to learn these new things, and about the learning corporate environment to make people learn and to have this curiosity and to make people willing to learn. I think it’s more about behavior, and creating a community within these people. Because we have a lot of learning role models in the company eager learners in the company. And we need to make them more visible. And I think it’s more about creating start small, but start with this small group of people that are already there. Oh, god, yes. And then do just start making these groups bigger and bigger, so others can follow them.
Hanne Lindbæk
I love, love, love what you’re saying. So anyone who’s been around for some years and tried to deliver trainings for corporations, right, the kind of the worst day at work for both Jason and myself, both as externals would be standing in front of a crowd of leaders who are maybe experienced already. And maybe they’ve been to some trainings before. And they would kind of sit back cynically and expect to be trained. Oh, yeah, it’s another day we’d like someone from HR is on this initiative, you know, and there’s this, there’s this kind of cynical vibe to the whole thing. And then, yet, we’re establishing and we’re not alone in establishing that these days, that learning has taken on a whole new role for us all. And it just needs to be up in terms of how we look at it from every point of view. And you’re saying, I don’t know what you call that an English. Jason, maybe you can help me. Here in Norway, we talk about if there’s a flock of cows, you will hang a bell on the kind of the lead cow. I don’t know what to call that in English. Is there an English word for that?
Jason Liem
No, but I guess, yeah, the herd of cows and you put a bell on. So you everyone follows the like, that’s it?
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes. So in Norwegian, we call, we call it a bell cow. So let’s go with that. For now. I’ve created a new English word. And the bell towers are the ones that all the other cows will follow. And that’s kind of what you’re describing, isn’t it? Laura, you’re describing that by hanging a bell on the people who are eager learning’s?
Jason Liem
Because we love and we will follow? I think you’d call it influencer.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah, that’d be a nicer word than a bell cow, for sure.
Laura Dejuan
There is a very nice video in internet about this behavior. There was a guy like dancing like a fool in a hill, with a lot of people around and music very high. And others were looking at him like, What the hell is doing this guy. And then our first follower started doing the same strange dance. And then another one came and another one came in at the end, it was a huge group dancing in these various strains of mood. And I think this is how all this kind of movement starts. Right? So all these culture topics in the company is about your behavior. And it’s about following that, if the answer is yes, and the same.
Jason Liem
I think that’s a very relevant point you’re making there, Laura, because you know, those early adopters, and if they do have influence, meaning they have respect and trust within the company, then people will naturally sort of be attracted to that. And so I think that what you’re saying is so important is where there’s psychological safety, there’s trust and respect, and those influence or those Bell counts, also, we call it right, and then you start seeing, you know, the early adopters then become the normal adopters. And all of a sudden, what was strange now is like, it’s accepted as, oh, this is normal. So I think that’s a very relevant point you made Laura relevant, right?
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, absolutely. And I also think because it was one of the factors that we spoke about in prepping for today, Laura wasn’t the idea of having self belief. And how self belief in itself is a factor for daring to like to go to the rescale or upskill state of mind or whatever. And it suddenly strikes me that self belief, we very often collect that when we see others doing it, don’t we? So if they can do it, I can do it too. Am I right? Are you seeing that, Laura?
Laura Dejuan
Yeah, I truly believe that to make riskily impossible in the company, you don’t have only to deliver, and offer the best IT tools or platforms and programs. But also, if you want people really to attend these programs, and don’t quit, of course, if you want people to be rescaled, you have also to create a proper learning environment. So, raising curiosity, and at the same time confidence in their capabilities to achieve their learning goals or their development objectives. So if people are not confident enough, and think they cannot change to a new position, because they think it’s too difficult, or they think they are too old, maybe it doesn’t matter, the IT tool, or how cool your program is, they just won’t do it or won’t finish date. So and of course, together with confidence, it also comes the support of the manager, and the need, why to do it, the benefit behind and the willingness to learn new things.
Hanne Lindbæk
That’s what you mentioned isn’t adjacent because you said the words intrinsic motivation. And that sounds awesome. Where can we actually go about buying that? Huh? How can we be systematic in our approach to creating that?
Jason Liem
Well, intrinsic motivation is part of an internal system in our brains, and how do we trigger that is when we a leader or a coach, or what have you a parent, you know, he or she can trigger it through how they engineer their questions. And so a lot of the times I asked managers when they’re running once, who wants to fire off this intrinsic motivation? Do you ask a question? Like, you know, for example, you know, What lights your fire? What are you passionate about? Where do you shine the best? What do you love doing? I mean, just questions like this, they seem very small and such, but they actually have kind of significance. So if we engineer questions, where it’s about the person you focus in on him or her, and what they like to do, that actually switches on something called the basal ganglia, and of the specific parts of the striatum, because when people start talking about things they love to learn, or they do, for example, a great way to start a conversation is maybe from a side thing, where you ask them about their hobbies, and what lights them up sort of their inner spark for that hobby. Because that becomes a natural extension in which to talk about reskilling or learning or whatever vocabulary you want to use. So when we talk, when we engineer our questions Haida towards a person’s passions or their curiosities, that literally triggers an internal structure in the head, which fires off intrinsic motivation. So just define intrinsic motivation. That’s that internal motivation where you don’t need to be paid, you’re just willing to use time and your own energy to invest in that. And so a leader or parents or coach by asking questions that fire that off, people will start talking about themselves, and then you light them up that right side of the brain, right. And that’s also the right side of the logical part of the brain. Because what is that part? Well, it runs, it’s parallel processing, there is no time elements, there is only the here and now. And the thing is, this is how we can get people to embrace uncertainty to brace the level of autonomy and agency and to focus more on efforts and always the final outcome. So I think it’s very relevant what Laura has just said.
Hanne Lindbæk
Thank you for that, Jason. And I think the idea then of coach style leadership just became a fresh and new to me, because within the major coaching schools now you’ve made technology of question asked me, haven’t you? They are really the go-to place if you want to get better at question asking. So, engineering your questions. Ooh, I love that. For all of us now, actually, for all three of us because we’re coming towards the end of the episode. Sad but true. What are like the core hacks and tips and tricks in here? I’m hearing stay with a stuck and they’re to experience the struggle. Sorry for stealing that one. What else? Can we leave people with that there?
Laura Dejuan
I think I would say look for this thing that your heart is waiting for. That will help you to be more resilient to create your own learning environment. If you don’t have it. There are many people around us that are eager learners and that are willing to learn new things. I think they will be a good source. Soft expiration, and as well as a good space where to feel confident. And as one of our guiding principles say stay curious and grow.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, it is, isn’t it? Yes. And thank you for that. Yes. I think that is such an interesting perspective to consciously surround yourself with people who dare to learn and who have gone there, because that will help you there to go there, too. That’s amazing. Jason.
Jason Liem
Yeah, I guess a very simple pragmatic tool is something I call short game long game that has to do with sort of effort versus outcome. You know, when I’m working with clients, what I try to do is, where do they invest their focus, and we do an 8020 breakdown. So 20% is looking at the long game. That’s the final outcome. And the reason we only want to spend 20% of our time at the final outcome is just to look up to the rise and just make sure we have the right direction. And we had the correct orientation, where most of the time 80% of focus should be in the short game. That means kind of in the here. And now. Why is that? Because if we are focused on how we can control a situation where we can create more certainty, where I can create short term predictable outcomes, then it’s focused on efforts. Now, I know too many people that always tend to spend sort of the 2080 80% located on the final outcome. Because if the final outcome is so far away, like one of the things I’m learning just for a pet project is German, it’s not. Hey, if you think level 100 is perfect German, I’m at level 0.5. But if I constantly focused on level 100, compared to where I am, it would overwhelm me and I feel defeated, I wouldn’t be embracing the struggle. But where do I keep it? I know where I want to get, right. I want to order a beer a room, what have you. I talked to people at a cafe, what have you. But so I want to keep my 80% of my focus on it in the short game. And why is that? Well, I focus on the effort. And there are three things, you know, I’m creating a sense of autonomy, I’m creating a sense of control, and I’m creating a sense of effort, what I sometimes use the acronym ace, that’s what I would suggest as very simple pragmatic leaders and parents
Hanne Lindbæk
oh, what a brilliant place to round us off. I love that. So by actually engaging systematically and consciously in how much time you spend on the short term versus the longer game, as you say, you’re feeling of mastery will increase and you’re feeling of ownership. And what was the third one?
Laura Dejuan
Well, it’ll be ownership agency or autonomy and sort of short term predictable outcomes’ effort.
Hanne Lindbæk
Fantastic. Well, guys, we are there. I’m so delighted to have had this conversation and what’s really you don’t see the longer game of the human centric podcast, but I do. I am hearing these words emerge over and over again, which is just bizarre. And today has definitely, again, been about passion and I passionately can say to you guys, just thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time and showing up. Good luck, Laura, with the BrainBox from Spain, and Jason, having found Norwegian love with all the important work you do in the world. Just good luck to both of you. And thank you so much for coming. Thank you very much.
Laura Dejuan, Jason Liem
Thank you so much for your time, it has been a pleasure.
