What should be your company’s strategy for attracting diverse talent
In our newest episode Simone Wamsteker, Chief Human Resource Officer at Detecon talks with Hanne and Svitlana about all the different facets of diversity. How do you attract diverse talents for your company, who will then help you develop more broad solutions and richer results for your clients in the age of digitalization?
So, what did they discuss?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Welcome to the human-centric podcast. And today we have a very special topic; we call it “Dare to Show Up.” Today we have our honored guest, Simone Wamsteker. And Simone is the C-Row of data companies, which is a telecommunications subsidiary and our consultancy company for management and technology. And Simone is the CH ro in this company, coming with extensive background from BCG, Accenture, and right now shaping up the future in Deutsche Telekom along with us. And daring to show up was a very special topic for us when Simone, Hannah, and I began preparing. It took us to so many different places. It’s about diversity. Yeah, it’s about diversity in terms of gender and nationality. It’s about diversity of thought. But it’s also about actually taking accountability and responsibility for this diversity. So listen up. Welcome.
Simone Wamsteker
Thank you so much. Svetlana, thank you so much, Hanne.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Can you share your story? Simone a bit of your background of where you’re coming from? How did you reach the place where you currently are?
Simone Wamsteker
I can definitely thank you. And it’s a bit daring to show up here as well for me today. So it all started back in the southern part of Germany. To be honest with you, it was a smaller town in the southern part of Germany, and we had a lovely and cozy life there. A lot of pretzels, as probably some of you might know is for breakfast, the main thing. And I was always looking a bit towards the river of mine towards north of the river of mine beyond that kind of boundary. And I was always amazed and attracted by everything that was beyond that river. So I started my studies in Cologne, which I’m currently now back with data con, which is quite nice and quiet. Amazing. Yeah. And then there, my journey kind of began, I started to work then in a smaller consultancy, finally got to Accenture had my first few years in the consultancy part, I already found a lot of friends and a lot of goods company on the one hand side, but also kind of first introduced to a lot of the programs and the thinking that I’m still into it like innovation digitization already in that very early stage. So that was kind of my first encounter with everything that was beyond my river, which was an amazing world for me back then in consulting. So I travelled quite for some time. And as one can imagine, after sometimes you’re getting a little bit more mature, you have to find the things that really attract you and check you. So I came across my husband, my begging Accenture as well. So we got married, family life kicked in, and we had our first child. And with that, and an exciting role coming to my occasion was that I had the possibility to change my role from consulting into the HR area. And with that, I was implementing the recruiting system for the data region for Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. And yeah, then I kind of find it very attractive—even more attractive than I would have thought earlier. So yeah, that was the first challenge, with another few to come in those different roles at Accenture in the HR area. So we had a huge step on technology consulting, we did a lot about digitization there already. And we also had a lot to do with diversity, which is now the reason for our conversation today. And they’re kind of it all started for me at least.
Hanne Lindbæk
I was just curious, Simona, when you said that all these experiences, like digitalizing and working with HR the way you were doing it, must have been early. Were you pioneers in this field?
Simone Wamsteker
To some extent, we were Yeah, I think so. I think within Accenture, we really hit quite a pushy environment, bringing us to more digitization very early on. So we were one of the first ones to have an online application form, for example, which was really fancy in the early 2000s. And so there were more things to follow, like the configurator, and I’m sure we will be talking about that a bit later in our talk today. But this was on the back of diversity as well. So we needed a solution for diversity in art. To attract more diverse talent, we came up with this configurator, and I can tell you all about that a little bit later. But that was kind of my first time bringing together diversity, digitization, innovation, and all of that stuff.
Svitlana Bielushkina
I’m curious why out of all the range of topics you dealt with also the C two row at a time. Now that you brought up the topic of diversity, why does it stand out to you?
Simone Wamsteker
I think it’s driven by two facts. So first of all, it is a very business driven one, and we will be talking about that later as well. I mean, we would be losing out on 50% of the talent market; it’s just a mere necessity to do so. And we know that there is a lot of good talent out there in the market. So why not tap into it, and why not make sure that we also make those roles attractive for women, if we’re talking about gender diversity, but also for other areas of diversity? On the other hand, a very personal one: I have three daughters. So I want them to be chosen purely because of their talent. And because of nothing else, this is a very, very good reminder. Every day, I wake up in the morning. So that’s actually a very personal urgency for me to make that happen for everybody.
Hanne Lindbæk
I’m sure every parent can relate. I’m actually the mother of two sons. And I will still really, really kind of light the fire for your three daughters. I think it’s very important that we have this conversation and yeah, get it right this time, perhaps? Well, if we are diving into this topic of diversity, I want to bring it back up from the prep conversation that we had, Simone, because you said something so beautiful. You said that you wish we didn’t need to have this conversation. So that’s very true. Thank you for that. So tell. Tell us more about that.
Simone Wamsteker
You remember, my starting idea of being north of the river. So my North Star, so to speak, is also that we live in a world where we don’t have to talk about diversity anymore. It’s really about talent. It’s really about what everybody brings to make our lives better, to make our companies better, and to make our solutions better. And especially in terms of data analysis, yeah, to come up with better solutions for our clients and to really have different angles on a solution. So we have so often the experience that if you have very like minds, you only cater for these alike. Humans are these alike people. So the more you broaden up the ideas, you accelerate the possibility of better solutions, have broader solutions have solutions that address more people than just your narrow, small circle you’re having around you.
Hanne Lindbæk
So there’s that argument. And it’s so important, isn’t it, that if you have diversity, whatever that means, we haven’t yet really defined it? If you have diversity around the meeting table, then the results of that conversation will be richer, and the outcomes will be presumably more intelligent because more views and perspectives have been heard. It is such a big word these days, “diversity.” And I find it’s such an important word to get right. In this day and age and to try and kind of get our brains around everything that’s been happening, especially across the pond in the USA, but it’s it has leaked to here to Europe as well, hasn’t it with the Black Lives Matter movement and everything that’s come with it. There’s this refreshed conversation. Yeah, that’s not really a question in there. I’m just gonna saying it is so important, isn’t it? This goes to both of you. Actually. Svitlana, what’s your comment on that?
Svitlana Bielushkina
I want to double-click on what you just said at 100 about how diverse people bring more ideas, which results in the more productive and richer outcome that you’re looking for. And it’s a very simple mathematic because one person was taken generates around three ideas. And if you have very similar backgrounds, very similar schools of thoughts, business calls, you know, same area, most probably the likelihood of actually having same ideas is very high. If you bring diverse people with different backgrounds, you know, different life experiences, different schools, different geographies, you will get a richer outcome. So it’s very simple. It’s mathematically proven. There are statistics, and the research is around them. They diverse teams creates more outcome and have better creative solutions, yet still has trouble and still didn’t have enough diversity in their organizations within half an hour diversity on a country level, like on on a on a broader scale. And we didn’t know how to tackle this challenge and for me He was quite important to kind of to connect on the statements about dairy to show up. Dairy to speak out, because for me, My professional background, Simone and Hannah, I was when I was 20. I thought if you’re all equal, there is no problem. When I was in my 30s, I realized, yes, there is a problem, but I can make it myself; someone needs to help me. No problem. I’ll do it. Right now, I started to show up, because it’s not about myself is actually helping others to have equal opportunities. And I understand we have to make structural changes to make it sustainable. And therefore me is the dare to show up. And that’s why it’s important to be talk right now in Deutsche Telekom about this topic that our listeners, and we also talk about is in no in Norway, Hana, where you’re coming from in Germany overall, but also across the road.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes. And thank you for sharing that, Svitlana. That brings to me that the idea what we have to frame here for the sake of the podcast is, of course, to understand that you have this Black Lives Matter movement, which is about suppression, and it’s about homicide, it’s about genocide, it’s about horrible things over hundreds of years, and systemic wrongdoings that are Verytrying to be corrected by a big political movement right now. And then through that storm, there are voices of people describing what it’s like not to be heard, not to be listened to, and to be discriminated against on the basis of the color of their skin or whatever it is. And through that, again, there seems to be this new wave of diversity in all shapes and forms, and that conversation is coming to the table. So here we are, girls. We are three ladies, and we are definitely white in skin color. All three of us, we would presume that any conversation we might have today, if we were indeed black women, we might have had an added layer to the complexity of that conversation. But we can still sit here today. And we can talk about gender as a form of diversity. Even in the boardrooms, am I right?
Simone Wamsteker
Yes. much though. Yeah. Groups? Yeah.
Svitlana Bielushkina
How’s the you work with diversity? Simonian does a con because you are in the boards. You’re part of the management team? How’s your work with your team? How’s your work for that organization around those topics?
Simone Wamsteker
So first of all, I think even before I showed up at DT Con, there was a strong movement in terms of diversity; we do have a diversity network already. And they are taking care of us with different kinds of diversity in all different aspects of diversity. So there’s definitely a question on gender. But we’re also talking about age, we’re talking about religion, we’re talking about sexual orientation, we’re talking about where do people come from all that that kind of different topics, because of the fact that we want to get a greater diverse and better solutions, greater and diverse teams, and better solutions there. So this is something where I think that the data that ICANN already has is quite a step in the right direction. And we are shaping the future there with our clients as well. What I would additionally like to bring to the table, I think it’s one thing that we focus on one topic first. So we are actually talking about the boardroom right now. We were talking about the quota in terms of male and female and the talent. I think focusing on gender diversity is our first priority right now, just because we don’t want to get lost in that and we want to make that right. And we want to learn how to deal with it. Not in terms of that we are not able to deal with the other topics as well. But I think we are having such a great opportunity to make that right and to really bring DT-con to an equal opportunity, which I think is there already. But we are not showing that in numbers. So I want to bring the numbers up as well. And having said that, I think there are a few topics you really need to concentrate on. And first one is it must be driven from the top, you need to have leadership commitment towards it. And only if this is true, then everything else can follow. Second is and that kind of goes hand in hand with the leadership topic. We need to have numbers we need to look at the different KPIs we have, whether it’s in recruiting, whether it’s on gender pay gap, whether it’s on promotion, slots, all that stuff, we really need to tackle that and not only look at it, but also track it in terms of consequences. What happens if we do have one area where obviously nobody really cares about it? Yeah, then we need to make sure that these people do understand that this is not only a nice wish or an ambition, but that we make this ambition really live and real. And I think this is very important. And thirdly, then it’s the podcast has the title, dare to show up? I think it’s not only showing up; it’s living. And it’s really more of a show than a tell. It’s more show than tell. I think that’s very important. So I can give you an example of my previous roles: we had a lady apply for a job within our organization, and she was obviously pregnant. And we said, “Okay, leadership, now it’s your time to show up and make it happen.” And you better hire this lady. And I mean, definitely, she had the right talent to do that role. So there was no regret or doubt about the hiring of her at all. But the fact that she was pregnant probably made some earlier decisions a bit more difficult. But with that, we were so proud that all of our leadership was very much committed and very much convinced that this is the right step, even though she was out there for her. Yeah, maternity leave, which is quite normal and quite right, And she returned, and everything was fine.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And when I’m listening to the story, Simone, I also have one foot in mind: diversity becomes a mandatory education for leadership. Yeah. Because that’s how we all have to innovate this thinking, this unbiased thinking, which sometimes we are not aware, we have to become conscious that we might have it and watch out for potential samples of sinister organization. Yeah, so more and more thinking that, you know, the business schools, we have all the MBAs or the child professional certifications, what organizations are doing in corporations is very much about education. It’s a must-have skill these days.
Simone Wamsteker
Yeah, that’s very true. And I think it really starts in every field of our society, starting in kindergarten, where, at least in some ways, the girls are still more on the drawing tables, the young boys are more in the gymnastic rooms. So we need to break that stereotype. But I think, to some extent, you still see that happen. And I think it needs to start there. And then we have to push it through in the schools; we have to get it out, as I said, in every field of our society.
Hanne Lindbæk
I think there are some massive influences. Like, for instance, within the commercial industry in the last couple of decades, I remember this guy, actually, it was a man who said it to me once. He said, “What if it’s not going in the right direction?” You know, if you look at gender, image, and how women feel they have to look these days, and the amounts of operations, injections, makeup, and stash that needs to be on us. You know, the idea of physical beauty, at least here in Norway, is, in many ways, perhaps even bigger now than it was a couple of decades ago. I have no statistics for this. But I sometimes think of it. I spoke to a family therapist about this once again, a man, and it’s a wonderful story, because he said, “So he’s a family therapist, and he would have young couples come to him and they’d be in trouble somehow.” And they only just established their kind of family and had kind of, you know, set sail towards the big sunset of being a married couple for whatever amount of years. And when they were discussing it with him and my friend, the family therapist, he would say, it’s like they were choosing this very old fashioned happiness recipe. He said, he said like, they would choose just intuitively and maybe with like unconscious bias, like you’re saying Svetlana, they will choose for the man to have the better paid job for the man to have the more important job for the woman to be the one with the not so important job and making sure she could have space in her life to take care of the kids. And these are actually two very profound happiness recipes. Very few women will tell you that they grew up really, really wishing to not have time enough for the kids. Very few men will grow up and say, “Oh, I’ve always wanted to be provided for by a woman.” But ya know, so the happiness recipe idea of what really drives us, you know, deep down beneath the layers of like corporate success or yeah, what is a happy life how this gets pretty deep? Bringing it back to the corporations, if I am a talented and eager young woman today, Simona And what if I were to look at these quotas and kind of think, “I don’t want to be hired just because I’m a gender?” What would be your comment on that?
Simone Wamsteker
When I was talking about how I don’t want to talk about diversity anymore, Thinking about that first statement, I think that’s kind of my true belief. We are not hiring to meet quotas. And I’m also when I said that we do look at the numbers, the deep down believe still is there is equal talent. And I would not give any job to anybody, whether male or female, black or white, or whatever you want to have, just because I have to fulfill a certain KPI. There must be a priority for talent. And I think this is why I would be very confident in my ability to answer this young lady. If you’re talented, You’re in, not because you’re a woman.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, yes, yes. We just had this conversation before we went on the recording today that, here in Norway, which I’m sending from right now, we’ve reached our quota. When it comes to female members of the board, we’ve had it for years and years. And when I looked at the numbers, it was actually working. Things have actually changed in the right direction up here. And I also remember when the quota came about, I remember a certain type of woman who would be like, “Yes, I don’t care.” Here I come. You know, I won’t worry about whether it’s because I’m male or female or what I am; I want to do the hard work. I want to use my brain; I want to apply my talents, wisdom, and insight.
Simone Wamsteker
Yes, and I think this should be the way to think about it. Still. I mean, as we talked before, I do believe in numbers, and I do believe that we must make sure that everybody is aware of what we are driving toward and what we want to achieve. When I was driving up here today for doing that podcast, I was also a bit reflecting on, it’s a bit like we have this COVID situation now there’s a big debate about the masks right now. Do we still need them? Probably we won’t. And we don’t need them right now. But it’s still a sign that it’s not yet over and she can come back. And with this mask being the sign for “be careful and pay attention,” I think looking at the numbers is just about the same thing. Make sure that we don’t forget about it, make sure that before we are not reaching equal, and I mean really equal 5050. We’re not there yet. So, therefore, I think looking at the number is a bit like a sign for me as well.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And it’s interesting about numbers. Today gets you ready for the podcast that checked out, as of January 2021, the statistics in Germany: out of the 30 biggest listed companies in Germany as a country, only four have more than one woman on board. So we have a way to go. Yes, in general, on the top 13%. More or less of German companies have female leaders and boards. So mind the gap. Yeah, hundreds of you talk about how my gap is very big. How do we really bridge the gap? And how do we uncover that talent segmentation source within the companies? because it’s not just the KPIs and hiring talent? Yeah. So how do you work Simona into the data queue because female talents need help growing faster?
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, that’s a great term. Do you find yourself? Well, you don’t know, of course, because you don’t have sons. But I’m curious about your three daughters. Do you find that you address these topics with them in any specific or conscious way? Like, is it part of your raising them?
Simone Wamsteker
Hand? Is it the other way around? I would say they are my constant reminder. They’re easy. So I know that they educate me at least. So yes, it is kind of like a conversation with our home. Definitely. They are all eager to succeed. I mean, they see me working; I did talk to them just recently because I had one of the programs. We also have indebted communications with the Working Moms Network, and I was a guest in one of their sessions just recently, and I was thinking, “Okay, how can I prepare?” And then I asked my daughters. So how do you feel about being a working mom? My daughters are now 12 and 18. And as you can imagine, there are different views on the world and on them as working moms. So the little one is still a bit, like, sometimes you’re not at home, and sometimes you have calls that are obviously not going so well. And then you’re stressed, and I don’t want you to stress and I don’t want. So that’s her view. But the more they kind of take into consideration what’s in for me, and how do I perceive what my mother is doing? I think that sinks a lot into their daily lives as well. So they are actively asking, and they are also actively pursuing and pressing the topic. So we had one discussion just a couple of weeks ago, and I don’t remember fully the context, but it was about what profession or kind of job I would want to do. And that was with my oldest daughter; she’s 18 now, and she just graduated from school. So and I was telling her shallot, are you sure that’s a purely male domain? And she was looking at Oh, seriously, I said, “Mama, can you listen to yourself?” What did you say, right? So, so she’s a really good example, they want the same opportunity, they don’t want to be put into one certain drawer or one certain box or certain side of things, they want to see the whole world. And they want to choose from all the opportunities that are there. So they’re educating me to some extent as well.
Hanne Lindbæk
They sound like they are. And so our children should be doing like in a way more now than ever, shouldn’t they? That really gives me hope. You know, when I look at those younger generations, when I hear the consciousness, also with my two boys, young men, I’m looking at very conscious, very aware, young men who are able to have these conversations in a very kind of three dimensional and sophisticated way. And like you’re saying, with Lana, there’s this idea that when you’re that young, you’ll think about it for yourself. But when you get to our age, you’re thinking, “We want this to be systemic; we want this conversation to go wider,” so that we can make sure that for the decades that come, there is actually the development that we would like to see. You guys, of course, have such a role model at the top of your tower here. I mean, I sometimes think of her as being so celebrated when she finally leaves office. She’s leaving office now, isn’t she, Angela Merkel? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you guys have to celebrate her. And just thank her for the rest, you know? And so she has been a role model, but there’s not a 50/50 gender balance in her governments. Is there?
Simone Wamsteker
Νο, it’s not. But I think they’re getting a little bit closer. So I think if you compare her group to those around her, it’s pretty much becoming more diverse than it was before. So I think we’re not Canada. Yes. Where I think Mr. Trudeau has done a brilliant job But it’s definitely a lot better than before. Yes.
Svitlana Bielushkina
My recent also reflection on the topic of daring to show up and the diversity is our work with talent in Deutsche Telekom. So as listeners might know, if you haven’t heard about it, check it out in our first few episodes. We talk about the new initiative; we’re actually hunting for talents for future critical positions, and of course, we want to have a diverse pool where you would have male and female nationality and geography thinkers. And I’m these days very much in the dialogue with talents. And we’re having conversations about what’s next for you. How can we support how can we really help you meet your or someone’s up to goals and to kind of create your career going forward more than from males a here a feeling of overwhelm among female talents, and also the feeling of not having time for yourself. Have you experienced that maybe in dessicant Simona. So it’s really a female talent that we have now that would be thinking about the job she’s doing right now and the challenges she’s solving. And of course, the family, the kids, and everything else come with you. So you don’t have time to pause, and actually invest some time and resources into your career steps. So realize that we support those the systematic support of breaking through the quotas and having the environment we have the inclusion and diversity is also very much about individual work as females, and maybe it’s some grace could have career stages, wherever we are, whether you just came back from maternity leave, or whether you are, you know, just got a challenging job, but you really need support. Do you have any, maybe coaching any support and your programs for different stages of female talents?
Simone Wamsteker
Yep. And I think you mentioned a very good topic as well, I think you need different things at different stages of your career. So I think having these broader, as we said, networks, or programs really supports your talent, and I don’t want to do it by gender now. But really, make sure that you have the right support for your role in that matter. So I think this is very important. For me, it was always a bit also in terms of really role models. So I always felt very bound to different women or men; it didn’t really matter. But when I thought I could learn something from them, for me, it was really a lot about role models. And I think the more role models, including female role models, we have, the better it is because, again, diverse models are needed for different levels of work or roles. And you need to be able to choose from these different role models. So that is very important to me. That’s the one thing and the other hand, I think it’s also very important to think about networks, but kind of self sustained networks a little bit like we have this working moms network, they deliberately choose to come together because they felt they have something in common and they wanted to share ideas and tricks and tips and experiences and all of that. So I think that’s a fantastic idea. And giving the room for something like this is so important. And I think this is our organizational task and duty: to make sure that we give room for these networks, that we give room for people to look for a role model, that we foster these relationships. That’s, I think, where we need to create that space as an organization. But the individual has to take on.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Creating space and actually treating people as human beings is important because you create a space for their needs; your employees have different people with different needs, but you’re coming to work as your whole self. And if an organization creates an environment where you need them out, that’s beautiful.
Hanne Lindbæk
That is beautiful, for sure. And that’s not the “daring to show up” part. That’s the giving space for showing up. So there are two sides to this, isn’t it? It’s daring to show up daring to be brave enough to make your voice heard and to be seen and understood for who you actually are. And then on the other side, there’s the actual giving space for people to dare to do it. I just want to say, while we’re on that topic, that there’s a fabulous television series called Working Moms. Did you see it?
Simone Wamsteker
That’s how you must watch this. It’s yours it’s a new one true!
Hanne Lindbæk
And the women in the series are younger than all of us. But watch that series because it deals with, okay, what are these? Like intricate situations that working moms will get into, and it deals with them in the most amazingly feministic, forward-leaning, and sophisticated way of saying you should watch it. I think it’s Canadian. I think it’s Canadian, actually. So maybe Trudeau had something to do with it. So here we are. And we’re discussing and daring to discuss Muy Thai at this pretty big word diversity in terms of our experience as women. And my question for the both of you is did you ever actually have a situation in your life work life or private life? You’re kind of thinking, “Oh, my Lordy, I am being treated differently just because I’m a woman.” Did it ever happen to any one of you? It happened to me, but you go first.
Svitlana Bielushkina
I had a couple of different situations overall. I remember myself when I just had my first daughter, and I was traveling a lot at that point in time, and I remember that in the company where I worked, I was able to pick her up and just travel from all sorts of places in Bangkok at that point in time to have a talent review for the management team in one of the companies, and that was normal. So it was not considered something that was not the norm. That’s about creating the space, as you just discussed, not just being there to show up but creating the space. And it’s norm, it’s accepted as humanity, we all have been there. So that was really appreciated. On the other hand, I did have a few situations where I was judged by the looks, you know, I feel the listeners don’t see me, but um, you know, sometimes overlooking sometimes like just a girl. And every time I tell myself it’s going to change in a couple of years, I’ll be there. But very often, it takes some effort for me to be taken seriously; I don’t have a third TT of looks and feels, though I do make an impact. And that openness from organizations to embrace me being different. Not always easy.
Hanne Lindbæk
Not always easy. Oh, I think there’s such a big point in there. I speak a lot, of course, because I do things like communication, training, and other things for different corporations. And over the years, of course, I’ve trained 1000s and 1000s of female talents. And we sometimes have this conversation about beauty. Because it’s like, if you come across as too beautiful, and I think I’ve seen some numbers on this, if you’re too pretty. If you are beautiful, then men won’t trust their own judgment. So they won’t hire you because they’re frightened that they’re doing something really serious. Yeah. What they say here in Norway is that, on a scale from one to 10, you need to hit a seven. You know, but if you go beyond the seven, you’ll be in trouble. So the misunderstanding has to do with all of that, and that lies here as a kind of potential minefield, doesn’t it? But Simona What about you? Did you ever have a story where you felt cheated differently?
Simone Wamsteker
I do have a story. I think the normal story, every woman, probably one’s head is the one at the car seller where you just are ignored. Yes, yeah. Despite the fact that you’re, you’re willing to pay for it. You’re the buyer. So that’s probably the most stereotype that you can find. But it also happened to me. So. But that did not really hurt me, anyway.
Hanne Lindbæk
I’m the CEO of my own little company. And we’re only little and we’re not very significant. But I am the CEO. And we’ve been around for 20 years. And we do kind of train people on four continents. And I was meeting with top management one day with my three colleagues. So there are my three male colleagues, and then there’s me, who’s the CEO, and there’s this guy coming to greet and meet us in the reception area. So we’re standing in a semicircle, and there’s like the three of us, and this me, like these were four altogether. And the guy, he greets men number one and two, then ignores me and greets men number three, and then he goes back to me and greets me. And so I’m a Scandi woman, I’m a Viking soul. I’m so used to gender balance being the norm. You know, I’m so used to not thinking like that. The wisdom I sucked out of that story was how incredibly hurt, vulnerable, and angry I felt on the inside from that treatment. And poor guy, of course, we get into the meeting room and we start doing introductions and he just dies. But he thought I was the secretary, obviously; you know, there’s nothing wrong with being that. But my observation was that it intimidated me so much. It was hard for me to act with authority afterward, just because of that one simple incident.
Simone Wamsteker
Yeah. And I’ll come back to that. One minute. But you asked whether I had another story. Yeah, I do. It was one that really astonished me as well or surprised me as well, because that was also the kind of thing, like you just explained to Lana, where you never had the feeling in your 20s that there was something different or only when you were getting a bit more grown up. So I was actually not granted a promotion due to the fact that I was going on maternity leave at the time. Right now it’s 15 years ago, so I can live with it. It worked out in the end. But yeah, that was kind of a not so nice observation back then. And that was the first time I thought, “Okay, there is obviously a difference,” but it really took me until pregnancy to realize that until then I had no such situations or treatments.
Hanne Lindbæk
In that situation, if I try for one second to look at that situation kind of objectively and from a distance, If we observe you, Simona, at that time in your life, probably as a female talent of some kind, you are a resource. Can I ask you, “Who’s on the inside?” I mean, it sounds like just the most horrendous story; how did it make you feel at the time?
Simone Wamsteker
I was angry, and I was feeling. Okay, it really happens. I was also very surprised because this was nothing that I was used to. I mean, I grew up, as I said, in a very traditional way and in a very traditional part of Germany as well. And I had two brothers who were twins, and I think my parents did a fantastic job of making us feel totally equal. So I was feeling equal. During school, I felt equal in my studies. I was also when I entered the workplace, I was feeling totally the same level as everybody else. And then, kind of for the first time, when this hit, it was like, “Okay, they are true.” Yeah. There is obviously something wrong. Yeah. As I said, I was more angry than I was worried or hurt. Because then I thought, “Okay, look, I’ll be coming back after my paternity and maternity leave.” And then, okay, we talk again.
Hanne Lindbæk
That’s a resilient voice speaking right there. I think, if we’re doing something here, maybe we can create some kind of understanding or echo. And the echo that I’m hearing, which I think is very believable, and very recognizable for a lot of black people I speak to or people of color, is that people say that it’s going to be like one thing. And then that’s not really what’s going on. So the double standard of like, no, no, there’s no racism here. Come on, you know, we’re, you know, it’s all good. It’s 2021. And then the experience of not being listened to in the presentation or not being taken seriously in a meeting or, you know, I think that double standard is very hard. So your revelation of, “Okay, that’s what it really is like,” if I understand things correctly these days, makes me think it’s a hot topic, and I think it’s one we need to take very seriously. And creating one standard to not have these anecdotes flying around in the corridors anymore. I think that’s going to take us to the future we’ve been trying to dream up today.
Simone Wamsteker
Very true. And one quick sentence back to your message in terms of my feeling hurt. And I was treated like a secretary here. I think, therefore, it is so important that we talked about creating space and making sure that we have the right opportunities. Therefore, one thing for me that is very, very important is when being in that role, and when making sure that we have these equal opportunities, it’s also making sure that we have women in the right roles. I think this is so important to create these opportunities for those roles and not say, like, okay, maybe she’s coming back from maternity leave, while she will now focus on her family and all of that stuff, but really making sure that she has the same opportunity as every man that she is on a partner election process and all of that, and not assuming that there is another focus right now. So I think there’s also a lot of talked about the unconscious bias before, I think we are all kind of vulnerable to this unconscious bias. And I think one of the things is really making sure that we are aware of that and making sure that we don’t let ourselves slip in that direction.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah, because it’s quite easy. Yeah, it’s unconscious. Yeah. And you might not have bad intentions, right? So it’s just you’re just not aware of what impact you might be making here. And that’s the role of organizations and I’m very happy right now that’s in DC, but also in many other German and non-German companies. This topic becomes quite serious. And as you mentioned, Simone, it starts with the CEO, it starts with the boards, that understanding and cascades down to organizations to create that space.
Hanne Lindbæk
I would be willing to create a whole different podcast episode on the idea of whether or not, when you put men and women in a room, you actually create diversity. Is that where diversity starts? And I know there are some figures, at least here in Norway, that show that you know, there can be more differences between you and me than between me and a man. So we need to dig under the surface on that one too, very quickly. And do we, in fact, as women, I know it’s a silly question? I would probably want to answer it myself, but I’m going to ask you. Do we have to become men in order to succeed and ride the elevator? upwards in organizations? Do we have to become more masculine in our behaviors?
Simone Wamsteker
No, that we kill diversity.
Svitlana Bielushkina
No, I also agree with Simone. We should come human centricity is about being authentic and you bring different energy You bring different steaks to the table. That’s why it actually enriches the conversation, which enriches the outcome. And here, but I think on you ever into the topic of the diversity of thinking very much just the diversity of skin color, or background, or gender, per se, and diversity of thinking, and actually how to work with diversity is another big topic for leaders nand organizations to work with. Because it’s actually how hard you have many different opinions and a team. Yeah. And how do you deal with that? And how do you create and reach outcomes? It’s much harder when you have a team that is the same.
Hanne Lindbæk
Because of what I heard the other day, I spoke to a woman in a completely different context. She’s in the music industry. She’s a singer. She’s quite a well-known singer here in Norway, actually. And she said that you know, the basic idea of the music band, The Rock Band, she said, it’s such a male idea, all the instruments are made for males, or the expression of this rock and roll is very often it’s a very male setup. And she said, because she’s a highly feminized, highly vocal woman, she said, “You know, I have no desire or need to go into this male architecture.” And it suddenly struck me that, you know, whatever “male” means, like “masculine energy” in that context, that doesn’t mean to say that your gender is masculine; it just means to say that your energy is masculine. And we can certainly say that the corporate world has quite a lot of masculine energy if you move to the classical interpretation of that, and that some feminine energy could be cool, both for the music industry and for the corporations of the world. I think it’s so important that we, as the human-centric podcast that we are, differentiate between gender and feminine and masculine energy, because you can indeed see a lot of masculine energy in a woman, and the same with feminine energy in a man. Yeah. But that’s it. It really made me think because it’s like, “Oh, my God, yes, it is.” It has been pretty much created by men over the years, the way we’ve constructed our corporations so far. That one will change for sure. We are coming to the end of this, or are there any finishing remarks? Or where are we now? Are we any wiser?
Simone Wamsteker
Are we any wiser? I think we are on the journey. So therefore, I think every step we take in that journey makes us wiser to be honest with you. So every discussion around quota and discussion around what supports our talent in our organization, does make us wiser, and I think they’re to show up also sometimes mean there to try out there to try new things there to think beyond the rivers of mine or whatever, there is another boundary in your life. So I think it’s probably not that one single thing that we need to do. It’s not rocket science, or, yeah, in Germany, there’s an expression. I don’t know whether it exists in English, but it’s the egg of Columbus.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes. So we have that. Okay. Anyway. Yeah
Simone Wamsteker
So the silver bullet is, I think, in English, so there is not the silver bullet that all makes it happen in one go. I think it’s really a journey. It’s a way of getting there. But I think we are in a good direction toward that.
Hanne Lindbæk
That’s good morale for Atlanta. Do you want to add anything?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah, no, I was. On one hand, one will be thinking that there’s so much said about diversity and if anyone is wiser and angry with someone, and maybe we’re not wiser, but there’s not enough said about it, I think we should really continue to show up. And we should be very, very consistent in all the efforts to protect the first you know, changes we are making in the company, such as Deutsche Telekom, or in the society of a country or even more. So I really enjoyed the conversations. I hope the listeners took something with them, and hopefully, Simona’s dream will come true in 4050 years, but we’re not speaking about diversity anymore. It comes true.
Hanne Lindbæk
Hallelujah. 4050 years from now, they’re saying they had to have this product. Why? Okay, thank you very much.
Simone Wamsteker
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Hanne Lindbæk
It was a real pleasure and give our love to your daughters.
Simone Wamsteker
I will. I will definitely. Thank you so much.
