Developing and growing people inside the company.
Discovering the potential of employees is one of the focus points in our newest episode. With Dominik Gratzki, VP Pool of Technology Experts at DT and Christian Lepsien, VP HR Performance Management at DT, our hosts Hanne and Svitlana explore ways to lead in the new normal and ensure personal growth.
Svitlana Bielushkina
I think the conversation we just had Hanne was really deep. And it was really insightful. And I actually learned a number of things that took notice of a number of things out of the conversation. If you’ve done different places, again, how can you really engage with the teams remotely? How can you be vulnerable? Or how can you present and manage the human being in total, this environment, diversity, and how difficult that can be and how productive by end of the day it becomes? And how to really integrate diversity into the way you work? really insightful?
Hanne Lindbæk
Oh, yes. I loved that. And then the idea of how important it is to actually apply emotional intelligence when trying to lead diversity, the art of making sure people are okay with not agreeing, you know, I thought we went to some really cool places. I hope you guys have a good old listened, and you can watch it too. Of course, if you like. Yeah. and keep in touch. Okay, guys, here we are. Welcome back to yet another episode of our podcast, the human-centric one. So still, in this new normal, I am dialing in from Lockton in Oslo, the rest of the guys, you are in the studio in Bonn, and a hearty welcome to all of us today, on this January morning, where we are doing our broadcast. The title of the day is helping people grow in the new normal. So what we’ll be visiting today, the idea of growth, I find that very interesting in itself, both professional growth and personal growth, the corporation’s growth. And one thing is surviving in this new normal. But I think what we’ll be trying to do today is also like going from surviving to thriving. How can we keep going? How can we keep developing? So, Svetlana, we have some guests with us, don’t we? Hi, guys.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And I have to say, Hanne, I’m super happy; we have incredible guests for today to discuss the topic of growing people. Now I was reflecting on myself: how can you grow people? You can grow your kids. Yeah. But how can you grow people in the environment where you work? So I’m very happy to have Dominik Gratzki, who is coming from Telekom Deutschland, from the German operations we have here. And Dominique is vice president, where he leads top experts in data science, project management, and agile coaching. And I’m looking forward to Dominik’s discussion, how do you grow to have experts? Now? How do you grow people? So welcome.
Christian Lepsien
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And I’m very happy to have Christian Lepsien, who will say that we are buddies. Now we belong to one tribe and have VIP ears. Christian is leaving cluster learning before him. And it’s about learning culture and performance management engagement. And he also lives in a product called VIRRO, where we will visit a bit. So I’m very happy to have you on board. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And Vito and I decided to experiment a bit. So Dominique and Christian had questions beforehand, about growing people in the new normal, and neither of them saw the answers or each other. and you really want it to go there. It’s really important to have honest conversations about growing people, feedback, leadership, and performance management, and not to influence each other too much. Some break through Tana, just to go into that and to go into the answers.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, I must say, receiving the answers from you guys was just such a fascinating read on its own. And I can’t wait to go into these topics with you. And hopefully, we will not only discover what you’ve already kind of written down for us but also see where we can take it with these questions, with which I will just get started. Are we ready? Ready? Ready, steady. I’m just going to start with a slight, light question to start us off. The question what is actually human potential? And how can we maximize it? Now? You two had very different answers, guys. And Dominik, I would love to invite you to the microphone first. Do you want to start us off? What would your definition be? Go for it.
Dominik Gratzki
So for me human potential is to go with what was growing people developing them, giving them opportunity. And by default, people have a growth mindset. So making sure that we use their potential not only in the workplace, but also outside the workplace too. develop them. And I must say, for me, that’s the most important role as a leader: to give people the opportunity to develop their potential. But important is there to do that in a purposeful and strategic way. Why is it important? Because we do that to add value to the organization. So that’s why I think I would include that in the definition of human potential.
Hanne Lindbæk
So there’s something in your answer, Dominik, that says to me that if I just relax and let my days go, if I don’t think about it, then somehow I’m maybe missing out on using my potential.
Dominik Gratzki
Yes, I think just relaxing, it’s but yes, you have to go into a sort of out of your comfort zone in the learning growing zone to really make the best out of your potential.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes such an important, yes. And to maximize, because that’s what we were talking about. Well, we and Christian, because, on the other hand, you actually wrote back to us, which I thought was very brave, saying, “You don’t think you have a definition?” You don’t know how to answer this. Now, after hearing Dominik, are you any closer to an answer?
Christian Lepsien
Well, I would like to look at the words, you know, potentially, first of all, from the origin. So, you know, I think the original is “potential,” which is the Latin word for strength, you know, for strength and power. That’s what potential stands for. And while thinking about the origin of the word, I would say, “Well, so potential is obviously something that people have inside themselves, you know, like, maybe also talent.” Though I think that there might be a difference between talent and potential, I would say that talent is also something that you have from birth. But talent. I think it’s the fundament, I would define it like this, where it’s potentially something that I would describe it as the set of abilities, the set of abilities, someone has insight from birth, and that you can do develop, and that can be, you know, a mix of a mix of different abilities, like a creative ones, or cognitive ones, etc. And I also think that some people are even not aware of their abilities, you know, so I think it’s also a question of leadership to do maybe together with the employee discover, what is your potential? And where is it? And I think one way could be, you know, to put people into different situations and give them different challenges. And then just observe some, you know, and let them behave in this situation. And then I think sometimes you have this “wall” moment, you know, for you as a leader, but also for the employee. So maybe looking at the edit from a different angle, I would say yeah.
Hanne Lindbæk
Oh, God, we’re off to a good start. God, where are we going with this one Svitlana? We are going deep. Okay, great. So something we have lying dormant within us something, and we kind of touched on talent there. And you’re saying something about talent maybe being with us from birth? But the potential is the force, the untapping of possibilities and forcing us? Wow. Okay. very, very good. I wanted to ask us with Lana, also, while we’re on it, do you have a definition?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah. Thanks, Hanne. I know, I’ve been giving myself the answer is about what is human potential high potential. If you times in my career, because I’m working with talents, talent management, and high potential usually comes in some kind of form that you have to define it. I think for now, I strongly believe in a few things. Number one, I think the human potential can be really unlimited. Because I think we are born and the potential we have to develop ourselves. I just can’t draw limits. Yeah, so every person, every individual has a potential. And what you’re saying Christian values, strength, all of us have own strength. Yeah. And number two is very personal. and very individual. Yeah, and they are very often present. No, about our potential and what we are good at. And it’s about your own exploration journey into yourself, you know, when you’re in the flow, when you lose track of time, because you love what you do. Yeah, yes. I mean, if you get into that flow, you really could maximize your potential. And with Dominik saying, “Aha, nicer incorporations,” you have a purpose. We have in our telecommunications we deliver connection to people life is for sharing with see. And of course, we have to find people who are in the flow of what they do. Like for the for data science now for Jouko. Just have two people for just burning for that. And sometimes, if you’re not in the right position, maybe it’s even better for you to go out and find something else that’s finding you, and I have to say, have you seen the movie? So it’s this card, so I’m trying to chase you just for the recent one; if you haven’t, sorry. And I found it really is because they explained to kids in a very simple form. for him, and the colder the spark, the more you have to find your own spark. Yeah. and you’re on your journey to find your spark. And I think that I would say that “Spark” is this human potential. Oh, that’s thanks for sharing.
Christian Lepsien
Well, yes, my first thought, when I read this question, was to go back to 2005, when I first became the leader of intellectual telecom. And I, you know, asked myself, “Why did my former boss at the time, why did he assign me to an elitist position?” What made me you know, in his eyes to be a leader? And I think it was because I had very high expertise in, you know, things like negotiating and setting up regulations. I mean, from my professional experience, I’m a lawyer. So, you know, I’ve got specific strengths in this area, maybe, and I was a very good expert in my area. But, to be honest, I don’t know if I really showed leadership skills at that time. So, you know, and what I had to learn over time, it’s, first of all, how to what it means to be a leader, for a small team than for bigger teams over the years, up to 150, than in some years ago, what it means to become a leader. And by the way, I think you can learn how to become a leader. Leadership, again, is something different in my eyes. When I saw a challenge, what I had to learn is, you know, to trust my people to encourage them to work on the task without, you know, telling them what to do not without advising them what to do, but just trust that they have the motivation and all the skills to bring the best results. Yeah. And that’s what I really struggled with at first and had to learn over time, but now it’s working out quite well.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yes, that is quite the to-the-point challenge right there. I like the idea of actually daring to trust and daring to let go of the need to control everything. Yeah. Oh, that’s so cool. Okay, Dominik, what did you have here?
Dominik Gratzki
Well, I liked the question, because it’s quite a personal question. And I think if you’re not prepared to share personal questions, how can we expect others to grow and develop? So I think it’s an important topic? And I can relate to that question. Because for some time, I really had to develop the importance of really valuing diverse thinking and perspective, how did he come I think it’s also a bit related to growing up and developing and educated in a system, which is very knowledge-based. So knowledge is potential; that’s how you and I grew up. And so to value to find out the importance of diverse thinking talents, took me some time, and luckily, and I must say I benefited greatly from my international career, spent some years in France, Switzerland, and 15 years in the UK. And that really helped me to understand that knowledge is important, but the diversity of thinking and the diversity of talents are the keys to success, and that makes a difference. And then there is also the importance of emotional intelligence, of course. And again, that’s something that I also experienced in the major part of the transformation, which was the you-come-technique where we looked at 20,000 employees and asked, “How can we transform our organization to become more agile?” We had lots of discussions, and I said, “Can we just all agree?” and then, by lunchtime, we will be done with every single big grid.” But, in retrospect, I must say that if we had to agree quickly, and if you do that quickly, you lose the potential and miss out on the various views and opinions that people have. And that really is—I must say, in hindsight, we wouldn’t have come up with a right answer if you just agreed and just ignored or embraced all this diversity of thinking. And that’s fundamental. And that’s something I had to learn, and I must say, I had some great opportunities internationally to work with great people where I could use them as mentors, which inspired me.
Svitlana Bielushkina
I think we have this trust in diversity as the key topics right now. But what I also love to make what you’re saying that diversity is them hard. Yeah, I mean, it’s how hard of a job it is because, usually, when you have diverse people, they don’t agree. You have to accept it. And everybody says diversity increases products, etc. And we all understand, but it’s super hard.
Dominik Gratzki
That’s the thing. Why is that? I mean, you think it’s slow, it takes longer to agree on something. So that’s why I think it’s also difficult for some people to embrace. But it’s also important when you recruit, I mean, there’s a tendency everybody else when you to recruit a second median, to look out for diversity in that process. So that’s something where I think it’s key to always have this in mind: the importance of diversity and diverse thinking and diverse talent.
Christian Lepsien
And by the way, it makes us you know, get out of our comfort zone as leaders, you know, having people on your team who contradict, you know, who speak up who do not not, you know, anytime when you say, Well, I think this and that as a leader. No. And that’s, you know, that brings us because you before, I mentioned the topic of comfort zone and bring people out Yeah, that’s where we need to leave our comfort zone.
Hanne Lindbæk
What I love in what you’re saying right now, too, and especially in Dominik’s, is the idea that emotional intelligence is attached to getting the best out of diverse populations. If you have a group of people with very diverse backgrounds and you bring them to a table, one of the things you need for it to be qualitative is to actually know how to create a good conversation and how to facilitate a good discussion. And then there is the idea that we get to disagree. Gosh, that has just kind of disappeared, hasn’t it? with all the social media and everything? The idea of actually making sure a room can be okay. Even if people disagree, that’s just a brilliant point. You’re making their demand Dominik to just wanted to kind of highlight that.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Well, so far, so good. So we’ve got trust, and we’ve got diversity and honor. Yeah. I wonder you work a lot through the non executives as well. And you work in a number of different countries as us here in DC, but also you have other industries, and you have politics and you have business? What do you observe? What is the hardest thing for leaders to develop to really drive performance and grow people?
Hanne Lindbæk
Oh, that is a brilliant question. For me, my God, I think it’s top of mind right now, because I heard it the other day, and I think it’s so true. Someone was saying that when times are hard, we will be led by leaders who speak the truth to us. And we will not be led by leaders who kind of beat about the bush and kind of just speak in half truths, or try to sell the message in a nice way try to wrap it in a sugarcoating. So if I was to say, I see some leaders out there these days, and I have the privilege of coaching, some of them who are actually daring to be brave enough to be honest about the possibilities that lie ahead of us with a pandemic going on, about the economical and financial perspective. So what’s going on? And there’s some real truth to the idea that, yeah, well, if you speak the truth, people will be led by you. And that is super hard when you’re so frightened of disappointing. Right. So that’s one of the big communication topics I see going on right there. With that answer, Svitlana?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah, I think, indeed, you know, how to really not just tell the truth, but to have the real and sometimes difficult conversations, not to sugarcoat the message. You know, I think sometimes we tend to just want to be nice. I want to be liked; you know, I want to have people like us, and yes, you’re great. You’re fantastic. And when I convey a different message, I’m afraid of not being liked or of hurting people’s emotions. And if I don’t really, you know, control that, then I tend to maybe not say that.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah, I mean, if we go into the world of like public speaking, and we go to the biggie, like old public speakers through history, if you look at icons, like Roosevelt in the States, or Winston Churchill, what you will find is that in these times of immense stress and pressure, I mean, we think we’re in a crisis right now. You go to like five years in lockdown in London. You know, the idea of Winston Churchill’s speeches is actually very fascinating, because he very often says just how hard it’s going to be. And through that creates this level of trust. Anyway, we can talk about this topic for the rest of the podcast. We have diversity, we have trust, and we have truth and honesty. Should we bring that down to question number three with Svitlana?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah, question number three was more. How can we, as leaders, actually grow people and drive performance in this new normal? Because again, it becomes much more difficult to have difficult conversations online or to really connect to people to establish trust over just the phone or WebEx or whatever tools you use, and I think it’s even harder to really capture potential and help people be more self-aware and develop them and to grow people in here. So the question to you, Christian, Dominik, and whoever goes first is: how can leaders truly grow and drive performance in this new normal?
Christian Lepsien
Well, you already mentioned the topic of connectedness. And I think it’s really important, especially in these times, to stay connected with your team, which, you know, doesn’t cost as much as you thought; it’s sometimes like just picking up the telephone and giving a call; you know, I’m taking some minutes only for your employees and just asking you, “How are you doing?” How are you doing? So being close to your people And basically, yeah, ask them, “How are you doing?” How are you feeling? What are you working on? How can I help you kind of how can I support you give them the feeling that you recognize what they are doing, so that you are not only interested in them in them and in their well being, but also in their results? So what are you working on? Think of people who have a rather introverted personality; you know, they lose touch, and they need this kind of connectedness, these kinds of questions, and this kind of recognition. And I think that recognition is also very, very important—not only for satisfaction but also for performance. You know that I know that, as an employee, my leader sees what I’m doing, sees my results, and knows what I’m doing. So I think it’s very much about connectedness, and to leading by questions, also leading by questions. So in order to, you know, better experience how someone feels when someone struggles, for example, where someone needs support, etc.
Dominik Gratzki
Maybe to add a bit on that. So, for me, it’s about trust, empathy, and mindfulness. And I think if you just assume it’s going to be the same as we had in the past, just digital, I think there’s going to be a big mistake for me with what’s happening right now. And I mentioned that we I was leading part of the transformation—created a new department and a new culture. But now the catch is somewhat attached to the office. Now we, we are dispersed, we all home office, some stuff. So I think we also need to think about some sort of outside work culture, or maybe, I don’t know, it’s not really a home office culture. But I think the assumption that the culture which we created chef and office, automatic, everybody takes home, I think it’s dangerous. And I think we need to think that through and double check that as you said, we need to talk to the people, I think just assuming everybody’s fine because what we see on the screen looks okay, what happens behind the screen, I think that’s the very challenging task of a leader, to talk to the people maintain the trust, show empathy, and I would emphasize what show to really make sure that people connect. And for me, also, the point of emotional safety comes in, so that people feel really safe and don’t have to sit with someone in the office to feel safe. But they also know that they can trust people, even when they’re just on the call. And that’s why key for me, and in the new normal to think about performance.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Metrics, connectedness with Christian you mentioned and the safety, the psychological safety also goes hand in hand. So the more connected I am, the more I know what’s going on. If my manager takes time, just to say, “How are you?”
Christian Lepsien
I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Google project; I was raised to tell you, so Google did some research some years ago—they did research over two years, I think, on the question of what makes high-performing teams, and they came up with the result that the key ingredient is psychological safety. Now to create this kind of atmosphere that people you know, dare to speak up that people you know, do not feel that they get punished when they do a mistake, for example, and I find that very interesting. Because once you understand this, you know that this is the key, you know, for high performing team, then you can work on it, then you can cope with the topic and think as a leader, think about, well, what should I make differently? Maybe with my team? Or, yeah, how can I learn to create this kind of psychological safety? What does it really mean?
Dominik Gratzki
To follow up on that one to connect I think that’s what I noticed also my my daily work now the pastor spend a lot of time in meetings talking about technical topics as well and besides my normal people growing up, but I find it know that I spent more and more time in meetings where it’s about non work related topics. And I found that very important and that’s the feedback I get things like we have this after social gathering which you do business walks where we can together, we do sort of party concept that people don’t feel alone so it’s very much about non work related exchange so that they are connected that they feel looked after. And it’s not only about always having more content.
Christian Lepsien
Where we basically do the same in our team, we have a virtual coffee every four weeks where we do not talk about tasks and jobs related to our job, but yeah, as you said, none of them are work-related topics because they really like it when the waters are blurred.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Right. So you had to work in the office, you would go you would disconnect you will be at work, then you would go home now we’re all vulnerable. You know, you’re in the home office, you have kids running around, you have homeschooling, you know, you don’t have maybe enough iPads for all for every child. It’s all kind of you are in it. And sometimes you’re emotionally high, sometimes you’re not. And, you know, I think this is also a chance for a leader to truly be a leader. Because you know, the elements of you growing people, being vulnerable, connecting to people, and connecting to the emotions of people have always been there. But now they are required. Really, really, you know, this is the moment to show your leadership and be here for the people. So I find it fascinating.
Christian Lepsien
We are all human beings. We’re all vulnerable. Yeah, no, we are all fallible. Yes. Yeah.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah, I think I really want to tap into what you’re saying, Christian, which is that a lot of my clients are telling me these days that the value of calling people and doing that little one-on-one follow-up is just to make sure that you grab because once you’re on this team screen thingy, you just get this little green light, and it’s so difficult to actually understand what’s going on with people. So when I spoke to clients and colleagues of mine before the summer, the people who were the most exhausted were the therapists. So obvious up here in Norway, you know, you’re online trying to understand and read what’s going on, you know, through the three-dimensional lens of this person. And I think that’s one of the biggest changes we’ve gone through in the last year—trying to fill this space right now with something other than just reporting and being head-to-head. But trying to create, how shall we put it, “heart to heart” and “spirit to spirit,” it’s super hard. And some people that I speak to actually find it better to go back to the old-fashioned method of speaking on the phone. And the reason for that, of course, is because you’re closer to having an intimate conversation somehow. You might say that when we speak in teams, we speak to people. And when we talk on the phone, we talk with people, so much so that some leaders have told me that they’ve decided to go back to the very old-fashioned way of just talking on the phone, you know, because at least you can have that intimacy. Isn’t it funny?
Christian Lepsien
That’s an interesting point.
Hanne Lindbæk
There’s so many purely, like logical points to this, just like what you’re saying to with what’s going out the window, what actually goes out the window, when we don’t have any small talk anymore, you know, what actually disappears? It’s not to be underestimated, for sure.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And press that unity, Christian and Dominik. So you know, we have been in a situation for quite some time, but some months, right? In this new normal becomes a new normal, becomes digital becomes now hybrid, you know, partially in the office partially in digital. Do you see the impact and productivity of what you do in your areas? And do you have any reflections on how to increase productivity as a leader for others?
Dominik Gratzki
I noticed that we’ve come to the point where the effort or the support we have to provide and also make sure that everybody feels well looked after and has all the needs fulfilled, they have and feel heard. That time is increasing. So I have to spend more time now and as you said, and in terms of calling the one to one that’s takes more time now to get the same result and make sure everybody has the problem addressed and feel safe. So that’s something I noticed increases now what time compared to go half a year ago, maybe?
Christian Lepsien
I think it’s also very important to be as clear as possible on what you expect of your team, you know, what are the results I expect, when to deliver what so clarity, clarity on goals, short term goals, I would say, you know, over over a certain period of time, and then regularly talk about progress. That’s, I think, a good way to secure—maybe also to increase productivity—but at least to secure the productivity level. But also check your goals. You know, also check your goals, taking into account that people you know, they have children, I have three children at home. So I also have together with my wife who’s also working, we have to care for our children. They’re homeschooling; they’re basically struggling with homeschooling. So, yeah, I think you also, as a leader, have to think about, you know, how ambitious tasks or goals can be. And can I really set five goals? Or should I reduce them to two or three goals? Considering the product situation?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah. So the priority for clarity, what do you actually really want to achieve becomes much much higher, so you can’t be back any longer? Yes, you really have to have heard as much as your time and your emotions will allow, and you have to pray for clarity for the teams. Again, we always had it before in the leadership role. it crystallizes now much more.
Dominik Gratzki
But as you said, understanding the circumstances for everybody is different now. And that’s not sometimes obvious. And sometimes you don’t get the answer just by asking, “How are you doing?” It takes time. And that’s something where, over time, we learn that maybe we are everybody, and that a leader has to love and grow.
Hanne Lindbæk
It’s bringing so many challenges to us this situation that we’re in, and it reminds me in so many ways of storytelling, you know, you could even like kind of go, once upon a time there was a planet. And then along came this situation. And this virus, this challenge that we’re somehow all facing—part of what’s needed for leaders right now is to believe in a happy outcome. And to instill that belief, which instills the possibility of not just surviving but also thriving, It’s like a belief thing, isn’t it, from day to day, to not fall into? Where I think we all go? Well, I’ll be honest; I definitely go there. There are days, you know, when you get up and you’re like, “Oh, God, it’s just going to stay like this forever.” Having the courage to believe that there is a possibility of a future. That’s part of this too, isn’t it?
Svitlana Bielushkina
Being honest, as you said beforehand, yeah. So to have an honest conversation about the fact that things are changing, you know, it’s not easy. And we have to be honest with people have to be honest with the feedback and what is happening in the company. You have to transform; it will impact, you know, us, for example, NDTV, and the transformation, but at the same time, it will give hope and clarity about what you’re trying to achieve.
Dominik Gratzki
I like the point, because when we talk about performance management, how it was and how it’s going to be, I think we have to assume, well, it’s going to be a transformation, and people go through the motions as well. So something we have to keep in mind when we come up with this is the new normal. That’s how we’re going to do performance management.
Christian Lepsien
That’s, by the way, why we put human interaction at the center of our new performance development approach. You know, that’s so coming, you know, getting back from filling forms and serving it processes is it and will change the leadership culture and not at all? It won’t. So we put human traction-freak dialogues and things like that at the center of the new performance development approach. And I think it’s important, not only in presence, but but especially when in remote working and you’re not in hybrid environments. It’s even more important.
Hanne Lindbæk
I’m very aware that in these conversations with Lana, there’s a word that’s come up several times now. And it’s kind of we’re not beating, we’re not biting onto it. But it will for sure be given some time here sometime, and that word is culture. And like, so right now. We’re kind of going Yeah, yeah, we’re not really addressing it. But if we put a performance together with it, that would be something interesting for this episode, wouldn’t it? performance culture? Is it possible to foster a performance culture, like from our home offices, guys, Christian and Dominik?
Dominik Gratzki
But for me, I think we have to address his point culture, because just assume we had a culture and that culture does people take home and we have the same performance culture. If assume it was a performance culture before that it will be now in the new normal, the same. I think that’s very risky. And for me, that’s one of the key things I personally will do with my team in my department: think about whether we need to sort of refocus on culture, knowing that we had a good one. And but is it still there, and sometimes not so obvious.
Hanne Lindbæk
And it’s much more difficult to agree on what that culture is once you really don’t see each other anymore. It’s an adjust even coming down to visit you guys in bond some weeks back. I was sensing that walking through the corridors was different. Of course, it was because there was nobody there. and whoever was there wore a mask. But there was also something else in the space. You know, it really has shifted something deep, hasn’t it?
Christian Lepsien
But you focus on this topic is really an interesting point. I’ve never thought about this, you know, having a talk with my team on the topic of culture. Has it changed in your eyes? In the end, we are all creating the culture we live in. So yeah, but that’s a good point. Yeah. Yeah, I think I’ll take it with me.
Dominik Gratzki
I wouldn’t call it a home office. Because of the office, no, but for the people at home, it’s different. And for the people who are in the office, not only me, because hardly anybody left in the office and feels different. But I think there is a cultural change, and we need to address it and find ways to create the culture we want to have.
Hanne Lindbæk
I think we talked about performance. I think a lot of the people I’ve met both professionally and privately after the COVID breakout, it’s like everyone’s kind of had a little bit of a think. And everyone’s kind of had a little bit of a well, when COVID is over. I’m going to do more of this and less of that, or you know If I had $1, for every person who now comes on once coaching about like finding a new job or working less, or like changing and being more to the point in their lives that’s in the middle of all the terribleness, that is actually quite beautiful that that’s going on it might be, I just have to, I just have to do you a little bit of a heads up, I cannot see a watch or a clock anywhere in my time, either. In the three hours of conversation, we haven’t even started; we’re just warming up a Christian
Svitlana Bielushkina
Do you want to also mention something from the week? Roll it? Well, I can do. Because you can also connect it to more of the going life of a product in Germany, if you want to, like performance culture, or Dominik left in terms of culture changing. And we have to rethink how to make it so that maybe you can also connect it there.
Christian Lepsien
Should I do it now? Yeah. No, yes, tomorrow. performance development of a new approach, which we are just about to implement, not only in Germany but also worldwide. So what is different from what we did in the past? What do we focus on for performance development? We focus on human direction, as I already said. And our core belief behind is that people’s engagement, people’s motivation, people’s engagement, engagement, by the way, understood as passionate work drives business performance, on a micro level, so in the employees level, but also on the organizational level. And we strongly believe that people’s engagement drives business performance. And what we did last year, when we had some, you know, conducted some design thinking workshops with with customers was internal customers, when we were, you know, shaping the new concept. We asked them: What motivates you? What makes you stand up in the morning? You know, get up in the morning? Sorry? get up in the morning? What motivates you at work? What do you really need? Or what are you lacking today? And they said, “Well, it’s basically very simple. We need orientation, within the clear guidance, we need a vision or a purpose, at least, so that we know what we get up for in the morning. And to which you know, high a goal we pay into with our results. We need feedback, regular feedback, and feedback in the sense of feedback, which is really helping me develop and grow. So I do not need a leader who tells me what to do. Well, you do too badly you badly perform on stage. I know that I know that if I did. Be sure, my leader, that I know that I barely performed. So you better say, “Well, when I looked at you performing on stage, I felt this and that, and that is something that helped my employees.” So getting feedback, which really helps to develop and grow, And last but not least, development opportunities So and one of the prerequisite is that I as a leader, I’m interested in my employee, basically, in their unique strength, and how to bring in, you know, the strength, best in what kind of area you know, and focus on the strength and maximize the strengths and not so much looking at weaknesses of people because I am much more belief and you know, strengthening fence and not talking too much about weakness. That’s basically our approach, in a few words, and that’s what we are looking at.
Hanne Lindbæk
Let’s throw in a little bit of an advertisement, right, here’s with Lana, because Christian, you’ve written an article, it’s on LinkedIn, isn’t it? And it is just stellar. It’s just brilliant on this topic of feedback in the workplace. So listeners go find Christian’s little article on that. You know, I find it really interesting. You talk about compliments. If you look at the maybe the best given best paid feed backers on the planet, my guess is that would be the trainers for the top athletes. Would you agree? Right? If there’s a trainer for a top athlete, they would earn so much more money just from actually being feedback givers. Now, if you look at their systems, it’s very interesting. It’s been decades, since what they did was shouting out to the whatever performer, what they weren’t doing well. And for the last decades, what they have been doing, because it’s what works, they have been systematic about telling any kind of star within the field of athlete, whatever they were doing, telling them what they’re good at. So this idea of like talking to your strengths, and talking about the stuff that went well, and talking about how you can do more of what you are doing well, is actually if you look at them, and they probably are the best paid people on the planet for this topic. They’ve been doing it for decades already. You know, I just find that interesting. That’s a good good point.
Dominik Gratzki
This conversation. I also have quite often with my people, my team, what are you good at, and what are you really successful at and what do you enjoy? And if we stop at this, which we enjoy, then most times they come up with a similar thing and see it as my role and my responsibility. I had to move them a bit to challenge them and give them a bit of an opportunity to find out maybe where there is an area where they can maybe work with somebody they hadn’t worked with before and weren’t sure whether that person was working on your project assignment. And that’s something to give people the learning opportunity. Not always when you have a discussion, but always keep those questions in mind. That has worked quite well for me. And I think it’s important when he also talks about feedback. And I think feedback, we also have to think about how do we give feedback in the new normal? Because I think it’s probably also have to be different. just over the phone. The past we did it Yeah. We said, “exception,” we’d do it this time over the phone because I couldn’t make it, but I think we have to look into that as well.
Hanne Lindbæk
Right, yeah, I am going to push this forward, because we are heading towards question number five. And I wouldn’t want to miss this for the world. in particular because your answers were so interesting. I wrote down for myself, I just wrote Wow. So question number five One thing in performance and talent development that Deutsche Telekom as a company should forget about and move on from So if I didn’t know who wanted to go first, I’d actually designate.
Dominik Gratzki
I just heard something that you said, which leads me to assume that you probably have a similar view, and I’m really happy that you included a question because I really feel strongly about it. My view is that we should focus maybe less on the weaknesses and let people strive, allow them to start from the strengths. My view and my experience is we have our performance discussions, and then we will look, okay, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? And then we keep dragging on the weaknesses? And what are the trainings you can attend? And then, okay, you go to that, where you should get better at presentations. Okay, you go to that, and presentation training, when no Think, for example, about my data and the data scientists in my area; they’re top-notch data scientists. So they came from well-known institutes’ companies, they should be in the Champions League for data science. And that’s a value add for the patient, it’s a value add for the company, that’s, if I send a while you should become maybe a project manager, I don’t do well for them. And I don’t do well for the company. So the challenge I have in those situations is, of course, how do I develop those people, I always assume they have potential and want to develop as data scientists. For example, now that I’ve found a way that they can sort of give back to the organization, I can come up and say, “You know, this wetland is the upskilling program for the entire technology organization in Germany,” so where they can share their information and get a bit of coaching and mentoring, they enjoy it. And also, it’s a win-win for the company because they grow their skills.
Svitlana Bielushkina
They will be multipliers, so they will become multipliers of knowledge. And that also increases their energy engagement and the impact they create. And that’s what they love doing.
Dominik Gratzki
So they should allow people to strive on their strengths. Yeah. Don’t forget the week.
Christian Lepsien
No, totally just focus on those Totally agree. Yeah. And maybe why are we speaking about data? Well, I do not believe that people are able to rate others. So I would never say that rating performance and potential is based on reliable data. But and so that’s, you know, I think we should really abolish this thought, because I absolutely do not believe it mean, in this is. an indicator of nothing more, and by the way, not rating on potential but reading on performance, but just as an indicator, not as the one, you know, single source of truth. So I believe, as a leader, that you are the only one who can judge the performance of an employee. And that’s it. And that is my and I will say no, please do not, do not. But it’s also a question of, you know, cultural maturity. And then that’s why we were saying, “Well, first, keep ratings.” I do not like them, but first keep them. And maybe in the second step, we come to a you know, while the culture is evolving, maybe we can remove ratings.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah. I always think it’s such an interesting question, because what came up for me when I saw your answer, which of course I did when you sent it to us, was that I’ve worked in a couple of cultures where there was never any feedback, or as long as you didn’t get any feedback, you knew you were doing okay; if you did something wrong, someone might say something. but we weren’t. We weren’t exactly seen. Right. And this was not a place for me to thrive, with any alcohol; this was not a good culture for me to work in. So I guess there’s a balance in here somewhere to be struck, isn’t there?
Christian Lepsien
Is there, is there one culture? I would also doubt that. You know, if you’ve been just thinking about the question, “Is there one culture within one corporate entity?” I would say that in Germany, we have different cultures within our entities and abroad, of course. So talking about cultural, some, some, I think, some some deeper thoughts. But the maturity level of the culture is very important. And while you know, talking, for example, about the topic of feedback, like you mentioned, the tanner, because they are also in touch with Telecom, they are areas where feedback is just not in place, is not lift. Yeah. And all this way. It’s basically lived.
Hanne Lindbæk
And they kind of go, “Oh, whoa, oh.” And it turns out that at the end of the day, there’s this level of politeness, so nobody dares to kind of especially peer feedback, very hard topic. Anyway, it’s a big topic. And I think it touches on this, what I really want to maybe invite you guys back to talk about some other time, which is to really investigate and go underneath the surface of this idea of culture, how it is created, how it has changed. Everyone says that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and I guess we would totally agree, but like, how does it come about? It is a fascinating question. I’m sure we all have many answers. So Atlanta, how are we doing for time? Now? Are we getting closer to the end here?
Dominik Gratzki
Coming on this performance writing. So I think yes, but for me, the but should be done in a meaningful, purposeful way. And I think we should benchmark by seeing what’s happening outside; I’m sure there are good ideas in the outside world. And for me, it’s a continuous process. I mean, humans don’t develop exponentially. Normally. So we should build that into the process. And that’s something I feel passionate about. And the measurement. Yes, I don’t have the KPI in mind. But I personally think some measurements might make sense, but then don’t measure for judgment. For me, it won’t measure growth. Because we tend to when we have some measurement, we tend to always he’s better I think we should use a measurement and to allow people to see whether and how they can grow further.
Svitlana Bielushkina
Yeah. Not very often when I’m thinking about, you know, ratings, or sometimes assessment reports of people when you work with them. Yeah. So I always say that it’s very much in my mind a comparative to the balance sheet. So it’s the view for today 31st of December 2020. And that’s what it looks like. It might change tomorrow. You know, it’s a work of cash flow, and unless you’re developing, you’re changing your picture, so what you had yesterday might not be the one you have today. And you have to be also aware of that. So I really liked Dominic’s explanation: “You have to measure somehow; you have to give feedback; you have to have some objective and constructive conversations.” But you also have to do it for growth. And understand that, you know, tomorrow changing so it’s not boxing people.
Christian Lepsien
Yeah. And giving, which we sometimes do. That’s maybe the challenge.
Hanne Lindbæk
Okay. Well, it looks as though we are drawing to an end, ladies and gentlemen, and I guess there’s a huge thank you from Svetlana and me for taking the time to show up, for showing up, and for taking the time to write such wonderful responses. I must say. It was a pleasure just reading them.
Dominik Gratzki
Oh, thank you. Well, it was a pleasure to be here and I enjoyed sharing.
Christian Lepsien
Thank you very much. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Svitlana Bielushkina
And it’s no no hard and growing people is really difficult topic. But there are so many angles to that. And I think we all ended up discussing, you know, leadership and how you can be present with people, how you can create trust, connectedness, care, and clarity. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Anna. Good bye for now. Bye.
You can listen to Dominik Gratzki and Christian Lepsien answers to that question and many more on the podcast: Growing people in the new normal
In this episode Dominik Gratzki and Christian Lepsien, our hosts Hanne and Svitlana explore ways to lead in the new normal and ensure personal growth. Listen in and find out!
