What actually lies underneath the word “branding”?
In our newest episode, Hanne is talking to Ulrich Klenke, Chief Brand Officer of Deutsche Telekom, exploring how the brand got one of the most successful brands worldwide. Also, they explore the impact the pandemic had on the Brand.
So, what did they discuss about branding?
Hanne Lindbæk
Hello, everyone, and welcome back yet again to the human centric podcast. We want this episode to be about discovering what actually lies underneath the word “branding”. Is it a cynical commercial concept? Is it a warm, human-centric way to know your company and enjoy going to work every day? We are going to speak to a person I’m particularly happy about having managed to find time in the calendar of we have the honor of having with us today, Ulrich Klenke. He has been the Chief Brand Officer for Deutsche Telekom for not too long. But he has a stunning track record before that, and he’s got like 20 years of experience. And today, we are really, really going to town of the ideas that lie behind the Deutsche Telekom brand. The Deutsche Telekom phenomenon, and how we can work with our brands in our companies. Deutsche Telekom, guys, is actually the 23rd most successful brands on planet Earth these days. So it’s no small thing we’re addressing here. Yeah, here we go. I’m super excited today because I’m actually sitting here alone for the first time, which is a bit of a change of scene sadly missing Svitlana, of course. But here I am. I have a very good replacement in front of me. Ulrich Klenke. Welcome.
Ulrich Klenke
I’m here. Thank you very much. Hello, everybody.
Hanne Lindbæk
Oh, we should be the ones thanking you for taking the time to drop by our studio. We are super excited to have you here. And I’m also very excited about the conversation that we are having today. I want to discuss the idea of branding. And we want to try to dig beneath the surface of the idea of, like, how does branding actually appear? And how can we see branding as a tool and a device and a phenomenon going forward, in the times that we are in? And all sorts of questions to do with all of this. Oh, you are indeed the Chief Brand Officer of Deutsche Telekom at the moment. And you’ve been here for how long? For a year now?
Ulrich Klenke
A little more than 1 year. I’m still learning to run. And I’m still to speak the language of Telecom, and to act Telecom—metaphorically speaking of course. But yeah, I think the first time was very exciting. And was very tempting because, you know, when I started, we directly went into the corona phase. So I just had five or six weeks of meeting the telecom people in the office, and then we directly went into the lockdown. So this was a very tempting and very exciting beginning. But for me, it was very positive. As a result, when everyone is putting anything into the marketplace and trying to achieve something for the customers and clients, as was the case in the telecom corporation, you’re just caught up in that huge effort. Nobody is having the time or the capacity for politics. And this was very, very good. So it was in the middle of the storm, and getting to know everybody immediately, and just like getting tested, if you have something to bring to the table, and then you’re welcome. Obviously, it was the case. So it was quite interesting. And I said to myself, I will write a book about that phase in my life because it was so weird.
Hanne Lindbæk
So incredibly kind of you to ask me to call you that. I will write that book with you. And I am super amazed at the point where you want to enter a conversation. So the idea of COVID actually taking away some corridor politics and actually in a way knocking us onto a center of how we can just get on with the work even though we’re stuck at home, sadly. So, I know I’ve spoken to so many other people in other organizations saying how odd it has been to start a job, we’d like entering into a social isolation and locked down like this. I’m very glad to hear you got something out of it, I am going to start by complimenting you a little. And I know that probably makes you feel awkward and peculiar. But I have to start there, because you are now the Chief Brand Officer of the 23rd most successful brand on the planet.
Ulrich Klenke
Of course. I’m responsible for that piece of value and for that brand, but it’s a team effort at the end of the day, so the big jump we were able to make in brand value was due to the sprint merger in the US, and the R5T leadership in most markets. And of course, that we went quite well through the pandemic. So, for that reason, it was a mixture of all these factors. But at the end of the day, it was all paying off into a higher brand value, which is round 50 billion US dollars, more or less. So there are several systems of calculating brand value, but we’re talking about the value of roundabout in between 47 and 51 Billion US.
Hanne Lindbæk
Okay, so I’m going to stop us there. And I’m going to take you back, because what you just said is, and I think it’s beautiful, is that behind every successful brand lies just a lot of hard work. And a lot of people doing their jobs very, very well. But then, at the end of the day, it constitutes and then, of course, that kind of work includes things like mergers and acquisitions, or all sorts of different varieties of human effort. But then say the sum again, what is the brand worth?
Ulrich Klenke
It’s like a huge, huge Spanish bacon. It’s like, you know, it’s one thing is how heavy and how big it is, you know, this is the value. The other one is how it tastes like. So this is the image. So you know, like, if you serve, looking at the brand, and talk about brand value, you have to talk about both images as well. It’s not just the brand value, because the brand value is calculated from a financial perspective. It’s like, okay, if you want to sell this brand, how many customers are you having? In what kind of business are you? Do you put effort in what? What is your contract base with your clients? Are you fighting for the clients every day in a new base? Are you having the chance to upgrade and upsell into your client base, though this all gives you at the end of the day a brand value? So taking over the sprint business in the US was like, okay, a huge step forward, because many more people are in contracts, the touchpoints in the shops and online are far bigger than before. And this all results into a higher brand value. But on the other hand is like the brand images, the images are more effected by the work we are doing with our teams. So like good communications, good customer interactions, good customer and client centricity is paying off into images. It’s like the picture of what, Yeah, it’s like the image is what people think of when they think of your brand. And, like, how close you are with your brand to their needs. And it all goes into a funnel, you know, it’s like you know, a brand, and then you’re getting into contact with a brand, and then you trust the brand. And then you buy it, or you’re like filling. In the best case, you’re feeling like a fan or like an ambassador for the brand. And this is like the typical funnel of images we’re talking about, we try to make that funnel like we like to interact with customers, to bring them closer to the brand. And like into our world of thinking in our world of program, our world of product. And the way we want to interact with people, this is what the brand can deliver and what we are striving for and what we are working on.
Hanne Lindbæk
So here you are pointing us to the actual work of working with and building a brand. So we’re going to get back to that a little later in the program. But so we get to know you a bit early or early. It must be an amazing job for you must be exciting to have this job at this time.
Ulrich Klenke
It’s a huge brand. It’s exciting and fun, the biggest tackle brand in the western world for that reason, you know; it’s an honor to serve it.
Hanne Lindbæk
So, getting to know you for a second. What’s your story that led us to where you are today?
Ulrich Klenke
Well, initially I started as a car guy. So I was in the car industry, working for Mercedes, working for a long time. And I started in the industry and then changed over to the agency side, working on the more on the creative product and then got back into the industry. I’ve been working at Deutsche Bahn in Germany. As the Chief Marketing Officer for eight years, I’ve been working as CEO for Ogilvy, which is an advertising brand here in Germany. And then I started to work as a freelance consultant for branding and brand. And then I was hired here for Deutsche Telekom to work on the brand and bring the brand further. And if you look at where the targets are, it’s like, okay, good not to lose any brand value. This is like something, which gives us a difference in the marketplace, and which is really, for the financial community, it’s really important to have a high brand value, because this gives you a difference in the marketplace. And the reason to believe into the brand or not for the financial community as well. And on the other hand, you know, you’ve got the client side, you’ve got the customer side, where images are very relevant, where you try to build something which I call, I own Farah vet, perhaps for Thai, which is an unfair competition advantage. So like, you know, if, if I have something which is a creative point, or the brand is like, so far stronger than the competition, then you can build a business on that. And this is where I’m working for a truly believe in creative brand leadership, I truly believe that creativity can make a difference in the marketplace. And then if you have the emotional connection with clients and customers, you’re far stronger as a brand. And then you can build a business on it. And you’ve got that premium upgrade there. You can achieve higher prices, lower churn, like being closer to the client, and this is where brand can help. But I truly believe that the product has to be right. So a brand is nothing without the product is nothing without the organization behind it. So just having you know, okay, good. But yeah, well, you want to dig deeper, and one or two points. Go ahead.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah, no, I so what we’re getting now, which I love, is an explanation of some differentiation you’re making between brand value and brand images. Yes. And that I find very fascinating. You’re saying the human centric, the behavioral, the interaction, you put that in the parcel with the brand images of brands? Yes, yes. So, and then you’re telling me that at the end of the day, the company that can create an irrational kind of advantage? That is unfair, you call it? Yeah. And that advantage will, of course, be translated into success, whatever that means.
Ulrich Klenke
At the end of the day, of course, yeah. But you know, you can grow, you can grow like hell and be not have any value for your customer. So your brand value would be high, but your image would be low. So it doesn’t necessarily. Yeah, yeah. But, but yeah, it doesn’t necessarily go together. You know, there is
Hanne Lindbæk
So we’re still actually trying to define this beast here. What is actually a brand and what is actually branding? And where does the value come into it? But so going back to the trailer was trying to be on the idea of human behavior and human interaction, human relationship, actually lying at the heart of what you call brand images, or imaging. And when we create that irrational advantage, yeah, that’s because of emotions, of course. So if I was the customer, now, if we make it really simple, I’m the customer of Deutsche Telekom. And I love, love, love irrationally, even the brand, I will prefer you over any other competitor, even though you’re more expensive even then, what have you done? What has happened?
Ulrich Klenke
Idealistically, you have interacted with a brand in many contexts, including the product, in the store, in person, in television spots, wherever. Throughout that chain of interaction, you have a positive experience, and you’re getting closer to the brand, because you know, you can trust it, that the product is good, that it has a good value proposition, and you’re not feeling cheated by it. The price doesn’t seem excessive to you. Normally, you pay more for premium products because you get more, but are you getting more product? It’s like sneaker shoes, you know, they’re all sneaker shoes, but some of them are $20. The other ones are 200. So where’s the difference, the difference is in branding difference might be in the product. But it’s a lot more in like what you buy as a brand, what you buy as an expression of yourself. You buy into a peer group you buy into a system you buy into a pop culture, you buy in whatever. And this makes a difference. And it’s, and you have many aspects where you can lead a brand to where you can do an offering with the brand. I always say a brand is the product above the product and you can design it, you can work with it, you can neglect it, you can invest into it. This is like a vivid thing which appeals to your customers’ ideals, adding something that adds a spirit, adds a sense of quality, adds more trust, and adds entertainment. When the people in an organization have to experience the product in every interaction, then it’s easy to have a huge brand concept within an organization. And this can be in the app, this can be in a personal interaction with a call center client. This can be in a shop when, you, like, have an exchange with somebody working for the bank, representing the bank very intensively At that moment, or when our CEO is having a speech at a conference, whatever. So when everybody knows the brand, and has inhaled it, and knows where we are going, what we are going to cover, and what we are going to communicate about, my job is to organize all that orchestration and all that activity inside the Deutsche Telekom to give you as my client, and I’m, well, you know, and after this conversation, you will be our client till the end of your life. But to get you to give you that positive experience in that like being innovative, being exciting, being lovely, being like empathetic, being like at your side, understanding you your needs, and giving you with our products, a better life at the end of the day. So this is just a joy. Thank you and that of my colleagues all across the place, globally, in the US in the net ghosts in Germany, wherever we are all representing the same brand. You cannot divide a brand. It’s the same brand all over the place. Ideal wise.
Hanne Lindbæk
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Ulrich Klenke
This was a long speech. If this was a long one, how many people did we lose?
Hanne Lindbæk
Well, I take it as my personal responsibility to try and kind of keep the red thread and keep us going through something. And you mentioned so many rich things I want to make for podcast episodes with you right now. But at the end of the day, here’s an impression for you. It feels to me like you are some kind of composer nearly at the top of actually a lot of schools of thought and a lot of different phenomenons that have to interact in order to both keep your brand intact, and to keep it competitive and moving forward.
Ulrich Klenke
Yeah, well, you get an internal and an external perspective on that. And, yes, design is designed, for example, is a very, very strong influencer. Because you know, when you have a common design all over the place, the common optical visual, like platform, everything happens in communications and interaction with the customer. And if that one’s right, you know, it’s half of the battle. Half of the battle one, we really have to say, graphical interaction with the clients all over the place.
Hanne Lindbæk
That’s very, very interesting. And to the point. So here’s the thing, of course, if we take the conversation up a couple of floors on the elevator, yeah, you know, the phenomenon of branding, as such. I mean, for those of us who have lived a couple of decades by now, back in the 90s. And the note notes, of course, it was it had a kind of semi weird twang to it branding, and I want to get back to it with you. When you look at the phenomenon of branding, it’s sometimes difficult to understand what you actually see, like is it a cynical kind of manipulation to fool people and create loyalty? Or is there something warmer, something deeper, something true and real actually going on underneath? And true story? The Deutsche Telekom is one of those companies, not every company, I go to has this. But Deutsche Telekom really gives me the feeling that there is such a thing as internal real, true observable pride and investment in the brand. So you know, and if we go politically radical for a second, there’s even been people who have been, of course, wildly critical of brands and super brands on the planet and all that this, like, you know, if you look at it from Barbara Ireland, advice side, for instance, she even wrote a book about it, didn’t she? So the idea of logo versus no logo, it’s a fascinating one, you bring me back to the graphic side of branding, because when I was doing research for today, you know, when you start Googling branding, the very first thing that comes up is like the logo or the colors you’ve chosen. So, the idea of the visuals. So tell me a little bit about that. So you’re saying that’s half the job to create a brand.
Ulrich Klenke
I’d say it’s half the job. It’s very, very important to have your corporate design in order. We just opened that up while we invented something which is liquid, because we thought that a design must bring three things together. So it’s like the content, the container, and the context. So it’s like it all has to be Yeah, it all has to fit into a situation when you as a client see that? The content means okay, what is my message? So it’s like, what do I want to transport via a TV spot or a radio spot or a piece of digital interaction or whatever? So it’s the container. It’s like the platform, I’m serving it to you. It’s like, okay, it’s the ad or is the out-of-home poster where I get the possibility to send you something. And it’s the context, like, okay, it’s like the surrounding on the website, it’s like in the app, what did you see before and afterward, and you all can create on that. So the design we are using must bring these three things together in the ideal way to have an ideal impact as you are having a wonderful offering for our customers and clients. And therefore, we invented something which is really, really flexible, and has more an idea than giving out orders, because this is 80s and 90s. Like, you have to put them as seen this logo on the right, the downside of the so that doesn’t exist anymore. Because you know, like having an app, you know, you don’t have to write down a side of an ad. So it’s like interacting with a design system must be very, very flexible. And giving our colleagues around the globe who are in charge of creating advertising or marketing communications, giving them the chance to really put our brand into the right place and give it like, bring together these three factors, though it’s like the context, the container and the content. So and this is like the design we’re looking into and make we want to make it flexible. And you have to like to have in mind that the sentiment of the people is changing faster than the in ancient times. And it’s everything via the web is far more transparent. So cheating your clients is over. Because they can check your prices, they can check your quality, they can immediately call for help they can give you bad notes, and feedback websites, and so on. So it’s like in the old times, when you just did your advertising, some were believing it some didn’t, you know, you didn’t have really the proof of concept, the proof of product, this is all over because people are so very transparent. Now they got all the information at the place. So what you need to do is to have an alignment between what you’re doing and what you say, and your advertising as well. So advertising is not about cheating anymore. It’s about to deliver you the right information at the right time into your sentiment that you truly believe you have something which is like a partnership, which is something where you’re where you’re getting under understood. And this is like the empathetic side of the brand. And this is something where we can still learn from competition getting better as a system as an industry, because I think we are half the way there. And we still have to deliver more on that. Like being closer to our clients being more, I’m using technology and digital abilities to get closer to the people. And especially in the corona times now, where you know, one day you have to lock down next time it’s over, it’s sunny, and your kids coming home from school, everything is good, and suddenly the school is locking down, and you’re at home, and you’ve got a different kind of situation. So the life situations of the people are changing in that time, so fast. And you have to take care of that, you have to understand them and take them where they are in kind of what kind of mood they are. And then you can react as a brand. And if you deliver on that, you will be in the middle of their lives. They’re going to trust you. They’re going to believe in you and they’re going to make business with you. And I think this is the most important thing. So being able to react to people situations individually, as individual as possible.
Hanne Lindbæk
Fantastic. So empathy. Yep, compassion, compassion, even for the customer. Yeah, that’s at the heart of the human centricity. You’re using technology from it, I need to I need to know when you’re calling me I need to know where you’re from, what your mood is, and what your situation is, like, you know, it’s like the intersection is too short for learning that I have to use make use of technology to understand what your problem is as fast as possible.
Hanne Lindbæk
So that’s the big change, isn’t it? We can no longer be about transaction, it has to be about relationship.
Ulrich Klenke
Yeah. It’s not about campaigning anymore. It’s about it’s a constant stream of interaction.
Hanne Lindbæk
And the flexibility you’re mentioning, which is wildly fascinating, because it’s like it has to happen every day all day. And it has to be super flexible, the phenomenon now of keeping up your brand, and making sure it grows. So if I’m a Deutsche Telekom colleague or a comrade out there now listening into the podcast, if you were to advise me, how can I personally make sure that I helped the brand be intact and help it grow? Yeah, what would you like to say to me,
Ulrich Klenke
I can’t tell you the secrets because I know that people from the outside are listening to this podcast as well. So we got, we got our own internal streaming fields approach, which means like, okay, good. We’re talking about the same thing in the same kind of way all the time when we’re doing it. So it’s like, yeah, we started a project, which is called Catholic communication, or Trinity. And this is something where we try to align all the communication people and all the salespeople into the same direction for some markets. So this is something where we, so if you have a question, so please approach us, and we’re going to help you, But I think, but I think one of the most important things is that we all understand the brand in the same way. So we got that online courses. And we just installed the new brand design, the liquid brand design. And if everybody would follow us on using the liquid brand design, it’s half the match. So the other side you’re talking about is the empathetic side or the customer relations side. And here we need to learn, as an organization, how to use technology better to understand where our clients are. So we right now have the ability not to well, to use social media data every day and see how is interaction going like how is the mood of the people? What do they want to talk about, you know, we see topics trending every day? So it can be that some day, it’s like, the weather is good, or politics or bad or whatever, you know, the football match went well last night or not. I know in Norway, you’re not into football that much. But however, if I, but it’s for Germany, it’s important, you know, I just feel like the sentiment of it can be up and down. And like using
Hanne Lindbæk
aware of your I’m aware of your football keeper, Manuel Neuer? Yeah. Oh, what a talent. What a talent like him. Yeah. Oh, God. I do. He’s, I’m not very much into football. But my husband is. So we keep, so you know, there occasionally I’ll be sitting beside him by the television.
Ulrich Klenke
Okay, good. So we are monitoring lawyer’s shirt sponsor. So maybe there’s an opportunity for both of
Hanne Lindbæk
us. Yes, I’m getting closer to Manuel. So we’ve stopped for a second here. And the track that I want to get back on is the idea of you in the middle of all this movie. Yeah. So because when I was prepping with you, you actually asked a really, fascinating question that made me go home and think when we were talking yesterday, briefly. And you said, so what is this conversation going to be like? Is it going to be like, like, completely esoteric, or are we talking commercially? Or are we talking? And I so loved that question. And I so went home last night, going to going, who? What kind of podcasts are we actually making? And where do we come from? And I think the answer, really, is that this podcast tries to come from all different kinds of schools of thought. And what we’re trying to do is bringing the idea of human Centricity to us humans when we are at work, because when a business tries to go about its business, there always be humans doing that business. So it’s wildly commercial, and yet still wildly humanistic in a way. So that’s the answer to your question. But my question for you because I sense in the center of you, there’s some sort of idea that some nerdy I mean, I get it, you have this commercial background, and you have all this like track record from really working your way, I must say, very impressively. So through industries and getting a bigger picture as you were going along. I wish you can see him now guys, his nonverbal are amazing. There is an idealist in here somewhere. Am I right?
Ulrich Klenke
I’m not an idealist. I do it for money. I do it for the money. A company is doing it for the money as well. But we have, you know, like, I love to work with what we call people’s brands or forex market. Because of these big brands, they do something with the society, and they earn the trust of, especially, the German society. But I think it’s the same in every nation, where a brand is like taking over responsibility for the society and in the society. And I think I love my job so very much because I can shape something which takes over responsibility. Very interesting. So like, for example, in the corona times, so when we went out and said, Okay, well, we are here for you that you can be in touch with each other and can be there for you as well. I think this made me really proud because Deutsche Telekom was able to connect the people in the pandemic times when there was no connection possible. So the digital connection was taken over real physical connections, and which made really something with the lives of the people. And we could help in so many ways. And this is something which is like you call it idealistic, or you call it like, okay, good. This is for a higher purpose or whatever. For us as a Deutsche Telekom, it’s just the normal work. Because, you know, like, we were there before, and the purpose was there before, but now it was like under a stress test, and it won the stress test. And for that reason, made the entire organization entire telecoms, very, very proud, because everybody was seeing how important they are for the society the first time, and it was not just Germany was the same in the US. But same in Greece we had in Croatia, and we had an order that goes like in Poland and so on, we had that we have a very, very fast and because our purpose was already done, so we already knew where to go to. And we have the same idea in mind and I think having such a high brand reputation inside the organization as well, every telecom is spreading her himself proudly with a magenta color. So it’s all like, you know, we are going out because we got the same understanding of what we’re doing. And we know that we are excellent in what we’re doing. And we know that we can take over responsibility for the entire nation and entire society. And I think this is really something which drives brand value, because the analysts in the financial market, they also see, okay, good. This is a business. And there are some companies, this is why we are rising, you know, in our brand value and in the stock market price as well now, because they see that we are coping better with a situation that other companies do. So there’s a difference. And the difference is culture. It’s like the way of working, how we interact with each other, and the way of how we understand our customers and clients more every day. And this is the reason why the Board of Management and the players there, like Tim luxury like Dominique, and Mike, they all took over the idea of okay, let’s be customer-centric, let’s put everything to the front line, let’s try to understand our customers and clients that stay at their side and turn them into fans and ambassadors. That means that you’re very loyal, and you’re very satisfied.
Hanne Lindbæk
Oh, okay, I love that. So being very, very loyal, and very satisfied. That sounds like a love relationship right there. It’s just a relationship I would stay in and you
Ulrich Klenke
calculate, again, by market research. So it’s five or 6% right now are extremely confident and satisfied and loyal of our customers. So there’s a lot of room for improvement.
Hanne Lindbæk
I did some work together. This is just geeking out with you now. But I did some work together with the Norwegian version of Saatchi and Saatchi a couple of years back, and they started talking about something they called Love marks. Yeah. So there’s a trademark. And then there’s a love mark and that it sounds like it’s you’re describing something similar. Am I right? That’s true.
Ulrich Klenke
But it’s the love brand theory so that people are loving brands. But I think it’s not jumping far enough. Because it’s just talking about advertising communications. So the theory is that you can turn a brand into a love brand via communications and advertising. And I doubt that I don’t believe in it. Because I believe in that every interaction has to be like in line and has to be very dominant and persuading that people are loving a brand. If you just have good communications, and you get to a city call center, or you get to city experience in the IKEA store, you will never be like you know, you will not love the brand. There are some brands which managed to be loved brands without any interaction with the customers. Ferraris Yes, have you ever driven a Ferrari? No, me neither, I don’t think I ever will. Many people who love Ferraris, of course, but they don’t have any interaction with the brand. So you know, it was good. But it’s all like communications, it’s like history and what the brand is standing for, and so on. So this is like something, but you have a love brand. But whenever you go into like a service field where we are a service industry, you know, it’s really it’s not possible to just create a brand without the person interaction and being really persuasive, and strong and past customer data as well.
Hanne Lindbæk
So you’re saying there’s a yes, and there’s a missing link. So you get the advertising, right, and you get the whatever right to try to create experience, like the fairness of the offer.
Ulrich Klenke
It’s like the people feel if the aims of your company and of the corporation you’re working for are right or not? Well, they feel it. You know, like having all information transparent on the web leads to that people are comparing, and especially young people talking about generation set. They want to know what your aims and targets and goals for your companies are. So I use sustainable. Do you treat your people, right? Are you using, like, balance? Tender balance? Are you trying to bring co2 emissions down? Are you sourcing fairly? Are you treating people well? Is there a generation contract? So are you on short term or long term? This is getting more and more important, if you’re not true to yourself, if your company targets and your communication targets and your customer interaction product targets are not in line, people suddenly feel that, and it’s like you in Norway, you have that electromobility thing. And this is you know, it’s like very, very interesting, because it’s like in telecommunications, there was a new technology being invented and going into the society. And the first step into that society is always like the inventors, the innovators, and then the early adopters. And you have to be true to that people. If you are not, you will not come to huge volumes in the marketplace. So for that reason, the true inventors like Tesla, they were the first ones to really get into the marketplace because they were like everybody believed that Elon Musk wants to achieve something. You know he wants to, he doesn’t want to say he wants to fly to the Saturn or to them Whatever. This is supposed to be a creative person, I truly believe that he’s got the right technology for me.
Hanne Lindbæk
Yeah. And so we’ll be here might be ahead of some of you listeners here, if you’re not that familiar with how Norway has purchased cars in the last decade, but we have gone berserk about the Tesla. So there might be several reasons for that. But we are actually then quite far ahead on the electrical car usage in the world, which is, of course, a delight to be part of that. You, my friend, are saying so many valuable things right now, I feel like I’m a bit of a farmer. And I have to go back over everything you’ve kind of sold out there on the field that I’m trying to harvest just a little, we are also getting to the close of our conversation, I think we could probably go on for I would love to. So if I tried to harvest ha, just a bit of everything we’ve just been through one. I love, love, love this one, your direct answer to me when I asked you, are you an idea that said you are going no, no, I’m doing it for the money. And so it’s your telecom. And then you take it from there into a landscape where you actually describe the personal pride and the personal, probably quite profound experience of taking Deutsche Telekom through the COVID experience and the crisis that it was, and you said that it kind of it stood the test of something that makes you love what you do for a living. Yeah. So there’s a commercially to it and have no fear, oh, listeners out there. That human centric podcast is a deeply commercial animal we will always be seeking because commercially, of course, is how any business should run. That’s how, that’s what we’re doing here. We’re creating and we’re creating productivity. But at the end of the day, the creation and the value of both brands and products and services and everything go up once people love what they do.
Ulrich Klenke
Yeah, funny situation. When I was introduced to some people, here in Georgia, I introduced myself as the chief law officer. Because I believe that the heart of the brand must be so positive that people fall in love with the brand. We can like work into that. So we can work in a seamless experience with like, very emotional connection with like finding the right topics, like following the right business strategy. So this is our opportunity. Of course, this what people are missing.
Hanne Lindbæk
Well, okay. So if we try to answer for ourselves at the if we’re trying to come to some kind of ending here. Like, so my jury has been kind of out. And I’m still a little curious of what is it that I am seeing when I see someone being perfect at branding? I have some bad news for you, by the way, because you’ve also now answered you said you didn’t want to share the secrets of Deutsche Telekom because it’s being shown to the outside world. But in the middle of what you just said to me, you were talking about how people showed up every day at work, I made sure their customers had the best experience. And that, indeed, is the secret to creating a brand that stands the test of time.
Ulrich Klenke
I think, Well, okay, well, talking about brand leadership itself. It’s like adding creativity and difference to the company. It’s like, a brand has two functions, two basic functions. One is orientation. One is differentiation. Orientation means everybody in the company and outside the company, giving these people the same picture and the same idea, the same strategy, the same vision about the brand. So this is like, you know, where’s that brand heading to? What does it stand for? What is the character? What is it? What is it standing for, what is important for this brand? Like, you know, is it a cheap brand or is an expensive brand is premium? Is it like open or closed? And there’s some very close brands like Louis Vuitton, you won’t find any person like representing the brand you know, it’s very exquisite, it’s very exclusive, it’s very attractive, it’s very, very successful. Servicing brands like must be open must be empathetic must be very relational must be like offering humble humbleness, a very direct connection on so but this is orientation the LPS is differentiation. So what are you not? What are you not standing for? Why are you not like exchangeable with the competition? What are your positive differences? What are you fighting against for example, we as a brand Logitech, and we are fighting against hate speech, because we know that you know, when you connect people digitally to each other there comes up like bad things as well, and we are fighting them. We’re trying to fight hate speech. So, this is something we are against avoids the defense against the competition, where we get the better networks they get the worst network we get the better service they get worse service. So brand helps you like to be with color. So we are magenta, the other ones are blue or red. So this is differentiation. Thus, brand gives you orientation differentiation, if and if you think in these, like columns, you know It’s quite easy at the end of the day to define what we are working on, and to work on that difference against others. Like I think creativity can really add something, I truly believe, when my people and when my team, when they work in on communication assets on advertising and promotions, on customer communications, we need to be creative to the max, because this is a difference the others cannot follow. It’s unfair to them. And this is well, if at the end of the day, what is my job is like to add something to the brand, which is more creative than anybody else can do. Which is like giving us the unfair competition advantage, like work into something which is really a solitaire, which is like really a monolith in the marketplace, which is like adorable, and is a difference against the competition. So this is at the end of the day, what I’m working on every single day, hopefully.
Hanne Lindbæk
Fantastic, fantastic. Oh, that sounds like we might find ourselves an ending here. No, there’s more. It’s more you want to do another episode darling, it’s so cool, we can do another one.
Ulrich Klenke
But one thing is, it’s quite sad. Because I had a role model who’s from my point of view, the best cmo in the world. It’s Fernando Machado from Burger King. And if you’re looking at the brand, and how he led the brand in the past years, and now, I think he was in six or seven creative awards, he was a client of the Year at the same time. So it was like, kidding me. He’s a creative monster. And I really would like to achieve what he did. He’s really so good in what he’s doing. But he changed jobs. Now. He went into the gaming scene to Activision and took over the same old job there. So we will not find him in the same as advertising category anymore. He’s gaining more digital and more underground. For that reason, the place is open. So maybe, yeah, if I have an aim or a goal, I would like to achieve what he did with Burger King like so now being so in such a creative brand and such, like just everything the rotten burger, have you seen that where you get that have not told our listeners what so there’s like, they didn’t add a piece of advertising where they just filmed a burger rotting, it got worse and worse and darker and darker. And with all that bacteria and everything on it. And they took it as an example, that there are no preservatives in the meat or in the product, that it’s all natural, it’s all good. But they had that negative image. And it was so daring to use that negative image. Because in that industry, everybody said, You cannot show a rotten burger for God’s sake. And he put the rosin burger in every country on every billboard across this globe. To prove that, you know, like, he burned an entire Burger King shop to prove that roasting is the best way. And he found very creative ways to lead the creative around the globe. And he’s a monster manager in advertising. And it’s like it’s really a role model. If I chose one, I would choose him. But he changed that, well. We have loose contact. But well, unfortunately, I didn’t have the chance to he’s I think he’s located in the US. He’s South American from origin. So what I know about him is very interesting. I got his contact detail. And I wanted to write him for a long time. But okay, maybe I do someday when he arrived in his new job, maybe I could.
Hanne Lindbæk
I do. So appreciate and find it. So game changing when we manage to find role models like that. Because if someone else can do it, then we can kind of thing and a lot of creative theory actually rests on that doesn’t it. But that is food for another dish that I hope we can make together someday, I’d like to actually challenge you and invite you back and talk about creativity. Because I hear it’s at the core of so much of what you do.
Ulrich Klenke
So it’s like not difficult to bring these together and not easy to be a manager for your people. Because your team is either following rules or breaking them, but following and breaking rules at the same time is really different in the head.
Hanne Lindbæk
Please, I hope to hire forces that this could be the teaser for our next episode together. I would love to have you back. The last thing I just want to harvest at the very end of our little chat is what you said about generations said and about their desires, what they demand from a brand these days. And that also leaves me with a kind of, there’s hope, somehow for me, in that the customers have gained so much power now that they can kind of influence and decide on.
Ulrich Klenke
This generation that tends that was just in the middle of like reinventing the system it’s like you know Friday’s for futures, and they come in strong and then caught by the corona crisis now.
Hanne Lindbæk
Fortunately, yeah. And let’s make sure they get back out there, huh?
Ulrich Klenke
This is going to be the next legit telecom campaign. So we are getting at their side and trying to help them, try to inspire them. Because we truly believe that if you got a passion, you got a future. So when you stand for something, people will follow you, and you will find somebody else to create something which is individual and stronger than the status quo. So for that reason, this will be our next campaign. It will be out mid of May.
Hanne Lindbæk
Good. Oh, good luck with that. Thank you so, so much for coming to the studio. And thank you so much for all your insights. It’s felt a bit like a kind of masterclass in branding and brand understanding. Incredibly interesting.
Ulrich Klenke
It’s not, it’s not magic, it’s just work. It’s like processes, it’s like going to the business every day, talk to the people and try to achieve something. Furthermore, it’s teamwork. It’s hard work from people every day, and as trying to steer that thing in the right direction.
Hanne Lindbæk
Am I though allowed to tell you, sir, that it seems like you’re pretty good at what you do for a living?
Ulrich Klenke
Well, I tried to. I tried to, and as I said before, it’s team play. And I just tried to be a good trainer person, I tried to steer in the right direction together with my peers and people.
Hanne Lindbæk
Fantastic. Thank you so, so much for coming in today. And that ladies and gentlemen was a bit of an attempt at lifting the lid and looking beneath the surface into this 23rd most successful brand story on the planet right now. And the Head Chief Brand Officer, Ulrich Klenke, was with us. Thank you.
Ulrich Klenke
Thank you very much for the conversation, and I’d love to come back, and then we dig deeper into that breaking the rules’ thing.